Elite Underproduction • Hacker News Board

Re: Elite Underproduction

#221

Post by Ekaros » Mon, Nov 08, 2021, 6:27 AM UTC

thaumasiotes wrote: post #200

dctoedt wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a growing economy might organically increase the need for lawyers. I've long thought that; the need for lawyers grows non-linearly with population, because the need is correlated with the number of transactions , which would tend to increase (exponentially? factorially?) with population.

> the need for lawyers grows non-linearly with population, because the need is correlated with the number of transactions This is a cultural artifact, not a cross-cultural truth. The historical norm is to use zero lawyers even for the largest-scale transactions. It's still the modern norm to use zero lawyers for small-scale transactions.

Or use fractional lawyers on one side. All that paper work, and how many use lawyer to check it? Or check when it is forcibly updated...

What should be asked do we have shortage of lawyers? From pricing point of view clearly no, they make more than minimum wage, but in general? Outside court-side is someone struggling to find one? Or are cases waiting cause we do not have them?

Re: Elite Underproduction

#222

Post by _delirium » Mon, Nov 08, 2021, 6:42 AM UTC

thaumasiotes wrote: post #215

_delirium wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Grants are definitely also important in academia, but at least the base salary of professors and some of the grad students ends up being covered by the university out of separate revenue sources (mostly tuition, but sometimes state funding or endowment), which makes it a bit easier. It also means that if you go a few years between grants you still get paid, and you can still get your grad students paid by having them…

> I'm not sure how to get hard data on what percentage of expenditures in a given department come from which sources, which would definitely be interesting. Well, I picked UNC Chapel Hill as the example mostly because it's a public school and therefore (as far as I know) its budget is public information. Is that not true? I'm perfectly happy to do the calculation in terms of "the chemistry department spend $X this ye…

> it's a public school and therefore (as far as I know) its budget is public information. Is that not true?

Public university budgets should generally be public information, but tbh I don't have any idea where I'd start looking for granular data, especially in an easy to process format.

> When salaries are part of the purpose of the grant, are they itemized in the grant? ... How much of it can you take?

Yeah, pay is itemized on grants. Despite being expected to bring in your own salary, there is still some kind of official pay grade you're at. How that's set when you're hired I don't have great insight into (I imagine it varies a lot). But after the initial hire generally pay raises work the same as with any other faculty (annual cost of living or merit increases, occasional promotions between ranks, etc.). The grant agencies all work in terms of "percent effort", where you say what percentage of your time you're going to spend on this grant, and the amount requested is that percentage times your annual salary, plus a percentage for benefits. People on soft money positions sometimes piece together support from multiple grants. So you might write a grant as PI asking for 75% support over 3 years, then on a different grant your colleague is writing, they ask for money to cover 25% of your time as co-PI over 3 years. Larger institutions might also have some internal money available to smooth over shortfalls. Also, some agencies have a salary cap (e.g. NIH's is $200k).

Re: Elite Underproduction

#223

Post by Jensson » Mon, Nov 08, 2021, 7:08 AM UTC

kragen wrote: post #108

robbmorganf wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> overproduction of physics PhDs relative to academic positions available Why are positions researching physics so closely tied to academic positions? We probably don't need too many more physics professors but we sure could use more physics research. Or maybe better physics research. Either way, more/better physics discoveries. That said, our scientific communication channels seem filled to the brink. So maybe we ne…

Maybe what we need is cheaper physics apparatus so you don't need a physics professorship or a big lab to advance the state of human knowledge. You aren't going to scale down the LHC to fit under your bed when you aren't using it, but you could surely fit an XRF, ICP-AES, AFM, and maybe an optical bench in there. For a while I worked at a satellite company whose first cleanroom was made only a few years back by cover…

Theoretical physics just needs pencil and paper. If you do the more computation heavy parts of theoretical physics then add a computer as well.

Re: Elite Underproduction

#224

Post by radu_floricica » Mon, Nov 08, 2021, 7:33 AM UTC

I'm finding more and more pieces of information that suggest the Great Stagnation coincides with the institutionalization of science.

Science "won", got the respect of society, and got upgraded to Serious Business, with corresponding stiff roles and certifications. And 60 years later we look around and wonder how we got to tolerate parasitic journals. Assume - a very fair assumption - that journals are just the tip of the iceberg. Just what us laymen see most clearly from the outside. This makes things look pretty bad.

Now, this is pure personal opinion: I think there is about as much chance of reforming academia as it is of making NASA competitive with SpaceX. I doubt a solution will arrive soon, but if it is it will be from somewhere outside the established field.

Re: Elite Underproduction

#225

Post by bencollier49 » Mon, Nov 08, 2021, 7:36 AM UTC

novok wrote: post #185

b9a2cab5 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that was the case then FAANG wouldn't be filled with Asians and engineers from ex-Soviet countries. The makeup of high paying tech companies does not represent in any way the makeup of the American population. I posit the reason this is the case is American culture and anti-intellectualism. If you look at top public school undergrad programs that don't practice affirmative action (UC's, UW) the programs are almost…

%34 of the world population are from India and China. And to be honest there isn't as many ex-soviet engineers in FANG as you would think, they are vastly outnumbered to chinese and indian engineers. When you hire the world, your demographics are going to represent the world for the most part. There are a few modifications as to why latin america, africa and developed nation people are not as well represented, but it…

That's an interesting observation, because paired with the elite overproduction hypothesis, it implies that allowing skilled immigration destabilises the country those people are entering, and stabilises the one they have left.

Re: Elite Underproduction

#226

Post by RNCTX » Mon, Nov 08, 2021, 7:36 AM UTC

woodruffw wrote: post #11

enchiridion wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn’t Thiel essentially anarcho-capitalist? So pretty far right and extremely (in the literal sense) libertarian. EDIT: anachro->anarcho

Thiel's hawkish military (and self-interested, given Palantir's contracts with Defense) positions on China probably put him outside of the pale of "normal" libertarian politics.

Considering the primary trait of right wing libertarians is hypocrisy-fused self interest, I'd say he's right on the mark.

Re: Elite Underproduction

#227

Post by kragen » Mon, Nov 08, 2021, 7:40 AM UTC

Jensson wrote: post #223

kragen wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe what we need is cheaper physics apparatus so you don't need a physics professorship or a big lab to advance the state of human knowledge. You aren't going to scale down the LHC to fit under your bed when you aren't using it, but you could surely fit an XRF, ICP-AES, AFM, and maybe an optical bench in there. For a while I worked at a satellite company whose first cleanroom was made only a few years back by cover…

Theoretical physics just needs pencil and paper. If you do the more computation heavy parts of theoretical physics then add a computer as well.

Yes, but historically great advances in theoretical physics have usually followed great advances in experimental apparatus.

Re: Elite Underproduction

#228

Post by nathias » Mon, Nov 08, 2021, 7:42 AM UTC

We need better ways of decoupling research from academia, not stoping people from getting an education.

Re: Elite Underproduction

#229

Post by Jensson » Mon, Nov 08, 2021, 7:45 AM UTC

kragen wrote: post #227

Jensson wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Theoretical physics just needs pencil and paper. If you do the more computation heavy parts of theoretical physics then add a computer as well.

Yes, but historically great advances in theoretical physics have usually followed great advances in experimental apparatus.

Like Einstein or Newton? Theoretical physics tends to be way ahead of experimental physics, it took 50 years from higgs boson existing as a theory to finding traces of the higgs boson in the LHC etc.

Physics is done using the true scientific method. First you make a theory, then you make experiments to test the theory. Theoretical physicists made a theory and proposed some possible experiments to test it. Then 50 years later data was found in those experiments to match the theory. What we lack today to further physics isn't experiments, we lack theories that are well formed enough that we can perform experiments to test them.

Re: Elite Underproduction

#230

Post by RNCTX » Mon, Nov 08, 2021, 7:49 AM UTC

runako wrote: post #205

derbOac wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that vaccine? Partially developed by one woman who was treated like dirt by U Penn because she insisted on pursuing mRNA vaccines, solely because she wasn't bringing in enough federal grant money. Demoted. Supported by another faculty member to do it. U Penn now likes to try to take credit for it even though this research was done despite them, not because of it. This woman leaves university academics to pursue r…

Sure, we're not optimizing. But my point still stands that yes, we are making progress, and yes science is delivering in places where it counts right now. The pessimism is unwarranted. What would be more interesting to me is some critical analysis of why the American sciences in particular are structured to exclude most of the minds on the planet. What are we losing, for instance, by the fact that our institutions ar…

It sounds like you mean to say "I would like my preconceived notions justified."

The pessimism is not unwarranted. The ends don't justify the means. Or if you want to argue that they do, then you don't get to keep the diversity games, because they're the opposite of that sentiment. Unless of course you're looking to admit that diversity games are just another means of wealth accumulation and labor suppression, in which case, go ahead and connect all the dots that you like.