Telegram Ad Platform • Hacker News Board

Re: Telegram Ad Platform

#221

Post by agentdrtran » Mon, Nov 08, 2021, 5:04 PM UTC

lxgr wrote: post #181

Andrew_nenakhov wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> so what (technically) is stopping a true E2E P2P platform? The fact that nobody really wants a true p2p platform: you don't want to lose all your stuff if you lose the device. It is clear that federated services like email are superior for most users bar some real hardnuts mindfixed on privacy.

> The fact that nobody really wants a true p2p platform: you don't want to lose all your stuff if you lose the device. Why not provide encrypted backups to a personal cloud storage service? Even WhatsApp does it these days.

You are welcome to start this service at any time. It is a colossal technical undertaking. Good luck!

Re: Telegram Ad Platform

#222

Post by tryauuum » Mon, Nov 08, 2021, 5:07 PM UTC

vinay427 wrote: post #43

vmception wrote: post #41

Telegram's communities are extremely lucrative Whether you created entire country dividing conspiracies just to sell some Q-labeled coffee mugs to the followers, or promoting your next crypto service, Telegram is there Its pretty much the best

It seems like a much more prolific version of Discord, where the focus is clearly on large groups, and it handles this surprisingly well. I’m not sure why people used to draw comparisons with Signal, to be honest, given that anecdotally virtually no one uses Telegram with E2EE, and its implementation of it is remarkably crippled.

I use telegram with E2EE ;(

Re: Telegram Ad Platform

#223

Post by swiley » Mon, Nov 08, 2021, 5:08 PM UTC

timeimp wrote: post #3

Here's hoping there will be a way to pay for no ads. But a question to HN: why have we not seen a mass-market adoption of a P2P, non-centralised messaging system that requires no external services to work? Mesh and other sorts of networks are cumbersome and have not reached mass-market adoption, so what (technically) is stopping a true E2E P2P platform?

Apple doesn't like them. We already have: XMPP (with E2EE) Mumble IRC Email Mastodon etc. Apple makes it very hard to publish smartphone apps for these.

Re: Telegram Ad Platform

#224

Post by FR10 » Mon, Nov 08, 2021, 5:10 PM UTC

jobigoud wrote: post #131

maverwa wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My guess is, because instant messaging only works with multiple people. The usfullness of an IM service is directly coupled to the amount of your peers using it. If there is no one to talk two, why bother? Sure, you and I may be happy to pay this, and may even fork out the fee for our loved ones, but how many other people would do that?

Whatsapp almost reached one billion monthly users before they changed from paid (1$/year) to free.

I was a relatively early adopter of Whatsapp and although the banner to pay 1 USD/year was shown to me, I just pressed the "use whatsapp free for a year" button whenever the popup reappeared. I never ended up paying anything to WA.

Re: Telegram Ad Platform

#225

Post by Andrew_nenakhov » Mon, Nov 08, 2021, 5:20 PM UTC

IceWreck wrote: post #211

Andrew_nenakhov wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you please elaborate, what 'another way'? I know only one: keeping the app running as a service, with all associated drawbacks. The app we develop (an XMPP client) does just that. On iOS, it is not possible at all. To make an app receive messages and notify user about them, you must use APNS, and to do that you have to upload your keys to Telegram.

Yes, the app runs in the background. It kills the battery, but you have to compromise on that if you do not want to have google services on your phone.

Telegram users who want to avoid ads and people who want to keep their phones google free are two very different audiences, which shouldn't be conflated.

Re: Telegram Ad Platform

#226

Post by Andrew_nenakhov » Mon, Nov 08, 2021, 5:29 PM UTC

lxgr wrote: post #218

Andrew_nenakhov wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't mind you doing it and showing us how it should be done. Ah, btw, how will a true p2p platform work on iOS? What entity will send you push notifications when there are messages for your device?

End-to-end encrypted backups? Like this, for example (I personally don't trust the HSMs/password scheme, but it's optional): https://engineering.fb.com/2021/09/10/security/whatsapp-e2ee... True P2P on iOS: No idea, I merely claimed that a lack of backup options is not the reason we don't have it.

It's not just the lack of backups. It's a world of constant pain and worry about your only device, security keys, and safe storage and transfer of your data. Forgot password? Get new account. Lost a key? Get new account. Want to open your messages in a browser from a desktop computer? Welcome to a world of pain. Your device switched off? Then nobody can send you messages, because in 'true p2p' there are no relay servers who would store the data, waiting for you to connect.

In practice, nobody wants any of that. The vast majority of users are perfectly happy (and for the right reasons) with federated and centralised services like email or WhatsApp/etc.

Re: Telegram Ad Platform

#227

Post by stiltzkin » Mon, Nov 08, 2021, 5:54 PM UTC

swarnie wrote: post #71

ivan_gammel wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Active user here. There are some great channels related to my hobbies, it has proper desktop version etc.

Comparable to something like Reddit would you say?

I find it more comparable to Discord communities.

Re: Telegram Ad Platform

#228

Post by networkimprov » Mon, Nov 08, 2021, 6:12 PM UTC

Andrew_nenakhov wrote: post #118

nsotelo wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Matrix is an open protocol and anyone's welcome to build a front-end, inspired by Telegram, that your mother would be happy using. Perhaps you meant the Element client?

Matrix is not a protocol, it's a product. Its openness is more like a public API to a product developed by one organization. Disclosure: I work with real open protocols.

Could you define "real open protocol" vs "public API"?

If the former entails an adopted RFC, isn't it common practice to prove need via a product before proposing a standard?

Asking because I'm at work on a safer, decentralized protocol for email, TMTP.

Re: Telegram Ad Platform

#229

Post by Andrew_nenakhov » Mon, Nov 08, 2021, 6:36 PM UTC

networkimprov wrote: post #228

Andrew_nenakhov wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Matrix is not a protocol, it's a product. Its openness is more like a public API to a product developed by one organization. Disclosure: I work with real open protocols.

Could you define "real open protocol" vs "public API"? If the former entails an adopted RFC, isn't it common practice to prove need via a product before proposing a standard? Asking because I'm at work on a safer, decentralized protocol for email, TMTP.

Real open protocols are ones not coming from a single vendor / not controlled by a single entity. XMPP and email are open protocols, Matrix, Mattermost and RocketChat are not.

Re: Telegram Ad Platform

#230

Post by nani8ot » Mon, Nov 08, 2021, 7:50 PM UTC

tryauuum wrote: post #219

whyoh wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>whereas Telegram users typically take these thing seriously. And yet they don't mind the lack of encryption?

I understand and respect your motive for saying that telegram has no encryption. At the same time I cannot stop hating you for improper use of words. I wish there was a simple and catchy word for describing a "vulnerable to the government" encryption

For me, transport encrypted (e.g. TLS) is the bare minimum everything going over a wire should be encrypted with, so encryption in the context of messenger is for me always about E2E. As far as I know, Google and Apple don't even allow apps to use unecrypted HTTP if dev's want them to be in their respective app store.

As a term, e2e encryption is quite short, and is also easy to search for, if someone does not know what it is.