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Elite Underproduction

troynikov.io

251–260 of 297 posts

Re: Elite Underproduction

#251
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> overproduction of physics PhDs relative to academic positions available Why are positions researching physics so closely tied to academic positions? We probably don't need too many more physics professors but we sure could use more physics research. Or maybe better physics research. Either way, more/better physics discoveries. That said, our scientific communication channels seem filled to the brink. So maybe we ne…

Maybe what we need is cheaper physics apparatus so you don't need a physics professorship or a big lab to advance the state of human knowledge. You aren't going to scale down the LHC to fit under your bed when you aren't using it, but you could surely fit an XRF, ICP-AES, AFM, and maybe an optical bench in there. For a while I worked at a satellite company whose first cleanroom was made only a few years back by cover…

You'll also need to pay for the people doing the research to buy houses, have cars, retirement savings, raise families, and have a decent quality of life too.

Add that to a bare bones optics lab with a few staff and you will be running about $1 million startup costs for benches, lasers, optics, closed loop cryogencics, He4, interferometers, etc, plus half a million a year salary costs for 3-5 people in a low cost of living area.

It would also need job security to be competitive with going into something like data science, making the startup costs a careers worth of funding otherwise it would be insanity to choose.

Source: PhD in quantum optics, no longer do science.

Re: Elite Underproduction

#252
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> overproduction of physics PhDs relative to academic positions available Why are positions researching physics so closely tied to academic positions? We probably don't need too many more physics professors but we sure could use more physics research. Or maybe better physics research. Either way, more/better physics discoveries. That said, our scientific communication channels seem filled to the brink. So maybe we ne…

Maybe what we need is cheaper physics apparatus so you don't need a physics professorship or a big lab to advance the state of human knowledge. You aren't going to scale down the LHC to fit under your bed when you aren't using it, but you could surely fit an XRF, ICP-AES, AFM, and maybe an optical bench in there. For a while I worked at a satellite company whose first cleanroom was made only a few years back by cover…

Scientific apparatus is by definition “pre-engineering.” It’s low volume and generally designed by a few people with no BOM optimization. OTOH, everything that’s engineered is generally just EE or optics lab stuff that’s already high volume and aggressively cost optimized. Good luck making a cheap MBE or dilution fridge, and good luck making a 10 GHz oscilloscope cheaper.

Re: Elite Underproduction

#253
post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Theoretical physics just needs pencil and paper. If you do the more computation heavy parts of theoretical physics then add a computer as well.

Yes, but historically great advances in theoretical physics have usually followed great advances in experimental apparatus.

It’s absolutely the other way around. High Tc superconductivity, quantum hall, Geiger-Marsden, etc…

Re: Elite Underproduction

#254
post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but historically great advances in theoretical physics have usually followed great advances in experimental apparatus.

Like Einstein or Newton? Theoretical physics tends to be way ahead of experimental physics, it took 50 years from higgs boson existing as a theory to finding traces of the higgs boson in the LHC etc. Physics is done using the true scientific method. First you make a theory, then you make experiments to test the theory. Theoretical physicists made a theory and proposed some possible experiments to test it. Then 50 yea…

No. No no no. It’s extremely standard to measure a material that’s known to be “weird” and not know what you’re going to see.

Re: Elite Underproduction

#255
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe what we need is cheaper physics apparatus so you don't need a physics professorship or a big lab to advance the state of human knowledge. You aren't going to scale down the LHC to fit under your bed when you aren't using it, but you could surely fit an XRF, ICP-AES, AFM, and maybe an optical bench in there. For a while I worked at a satellite company whose first cleanroom was made only a few years back by cover…

Theoretical physics just needs pencil and paper. If you do the more computation heavy parts of theoretical physics then add a computer as well.

It requires collaboration and mentorship too. These don’t scale super well.

Re: Elite Underproduction

#256

> Young people going into physics are fundamentally ideologically driven. So why do they lapse? I’ve got a master’s in engineering physics but now work in data science. Here are some reasons I “lapsed”: - I would have loved to be a physicist in 1921, but being one in 2021 is very different. I’d be surprised if there is a single leap in understanding (comparable to general relativity or quantum theory) in my lifetime.…

As someone that just finished a similar master's degree as you I'm very interested in how you made the switch to data science, do you have any advice to share?

I probably didn’t go the most direct route, so I doubt I can help you much.

Re: Elite Underproduction

#257

> Young people going into physics are fundamentally ideologically driven. So why do they lapse? I’ve got a master’s in engineering physics but now work in data science. Here are some reasons I “lapsed”: - I would have loved to be a physicist in 1921, but being one in 2021 is very different. I’d be surprised if there is a single leap in understanding (comparable to general relativity or quantum theory) in my lifetime.…

A feudal system seems like the worst type of environment for generating a leap in understanding.

Re: Elite Underproduction

#258
post #230
post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, we're not optimizing. But my point still stands that yes, we are making progress, and yes science is delivering in places where it counts right now. The pessimism is unwarranted. What would be more interesting to me is some critical analysis of why the American sciences in particular are structured to exclude most of the minds on the planet. What are we losing, for instance, by the fact that our institutions ar…

It sounds like you mean to say "I would like my preconceived notions justified." The pessimism is not unwarranted. The ends don't justify the means. Or if you want to argue that they do, then you don't get to keep the diversity games, because they're the opposite of that sentiment. Unless of course you're looking to admit that diversity games are just another means of wealth accumulation and labor suppression, in whi…

What argument are you making? Would be happy to engage if you care to revise your post so that it is coherent.

Re: Elite Underproduction

#259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's a public school and therefore (as far as I know) its budget is public information. Is that not true? Public university budgets should generally be public information, but tbh I don't have any idea where I'd start looking for granular data, especially in an easy to process format. > When salaries are part of the purpose of the grant, are they itemized in the grant? ... How much of it can you take? Yeah, pay is…

> The grant agencies all work in terms of "percent effort", where you say what percentage of your time you're going to spend on this grant, and the amount requested is that percentage times your annual salary, plus a percentage for benefits. This seems like it would tend to promote collusion between researchers and universities, where whenever somebody is hired into a soft money position, they would prefer to have a…

Your assessment is dead on. This is becoming more common in research related positions. For many years, I've "paid" almost the entirety of my salary in similar roles, I essentially pay a toll to an institution for its name, prestige, and connections as well as networking opportunities to support my continued employment.

The reason you don't set starting salaries too high is that for the business managing this (be it a university, private lab, etc.), although they essentially hire someone who makes money for them and pays their salaries through overhead costs that almost always exist (indirect costs), if you set the salary too high the role won't be able to reliably maintain itself, and therefor the indirect percentage you draw from incoming grants from that role becomes less stable. You could set a research associate for a fresh post doc at say $500k, but they'll probably never be able to pay themselves and therefor you because they won't be able to secure that. So you'll constantly be hiring for that position so it has to drop down to an amount that can be reliably filled and reliably bring in money.

From the institution's perspective, they want to get your comp rate as high as they possibly can to maintain their salaries but not to a point where it self sabotages their own position. The way these institutions maintain their administrative positions is to find these sweet spots and then diversify risk by hiring more and more researchers to pull in money for themselves and their own salaries. If several fail to pull in grants, admin is cushioned by the total number of grants (likely enough pulled in grants to provide enough indirect for admin). Take the additional pool and reinvest it in research so you get researchers to do even more free work for you. Some research orgs I've seen have incredibly high turn over rates (on the order of 1-2 years) and their model seems to be as long as they can keep a fresh batch of unsuspecting individuals in at high enough rates they can draw grants and indirect from to pay their salaries, it doesn't matter if that individual hired becomes resource pressured and burns out, there's a line of other qualified people more than happy to step in and naively fall into the same game. Rinse repeat.

Eventually it can tarnish the reputation of the organization itself where external money pools stop looking at the person receiving the grant but more at the organization of the person receiving the grant where they begin to lose faith that the organization can follow through on its employees promises. There seems to be enough turnover from funding agencies and the research orgs that do this themselves that institutional memory is short enough to keep the whole game going on. It's getting to a point at some organizations where people who pull in grants are joining the same gig as the research org and the idea is to act as a figurehead to the project where they then convince naive other lower level research positions to do most the legwork and pay themselves a portion of the total grant acting as another layer of administration. You'll see such grant recipients often as the recipient or lead on multiple grants they couldn't possibly be working on all of simultaneously. They play similar risk games to the research orgs that employ them in that if those they hire can't follow through, they may lose their own role.

It's quite a gig in some places, a bit of a pyramid scheme, really. This is why I've lost so much faith in research publications anymore, because the underbelly is pretty ugly. I've seen this at universities, private labs, even national labs and "think tanks." We really need to reevaluate and restructure how research is performed in the US.

Re: Elite Underproduction

#260
post #235
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's always a time gap. Remember that from the first public microwave demonstrations in 01895 by Bose to the first deployments (as radar in the 01940s) took 45 years; the Amana Radarange brought microwaves into people's homes in 01967, another 27 years later; and microwave ovens didn't really go mainstream until about 01990, another 23 years after that , 95 years after Bose's first public demonstrations. The LASER…

> vaccine ... wasn't rolled out for another 9 months, during which tens of millions of people died The total death toll has just passed 5 million.

Official one yes. Idk about tens of millions but I’m also thinking 5 million is lower than the true numbers. Though I’m also not sure there is a qualitative difference (as much as it pains me to say).
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