Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implications are serious. • Hacker News Board

Re: Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implications are serious.

#121

Post by spindritf » Sat, Aug 20, 2011, 11:21 AM UTC

tomjen3 wrote: post #95

lionhearted wrote: post #44

I have a theory that I haven't found expounded before. It came from a combination of travel through 60+ countries, living and working and interacting with local people on a pretty intimate level sometimes, and study of lots of history. It's going to be controversial and maybe even shocking, so brace yourself for a moment before reacting please. I think peaceful societies self-destruct. With a few notable exceptions t…

You may very likely have been right about it in the past, but at least in Europe, two world wars essentially killed any military spirit left -- for everybody. There are no barbarians at the gates, they have all been (mostly) civilized. With regard to the rest of the western world, I think the kind of large scale war you talk about is permanently over -- both because it would be far too expensive for everybody and bec…

> There are no barbarians at the gates, they have all been (mostly) civilized.

We still have the same "barbarians" as we always had. For the last two decades we just happened to be in a little better relations with them.

There is currently a war in progress in Libya in which one side is supported by the European forces. In 2008 Russian army entered parts of Georgia, mere 15 years after the Red Army was pulled from Eastern Europe.

Nothing changed. It never does.

> I think the kind of large scale war you talk about is permanently over

I agree that large-scale warfare is currently not very likely but I don't think it was ever that common as the twentieth century had led us to believe.

Re: Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implications are serious.

#122

Post by csomar » Sat, Aug 20, 2011, 11:26 AM UTC

lionhearted wrote: post #44

I have a theory that I haven't found expounded before. It came from a combination of travel through 60+ countries, living and working and interacting with local people on a pretty intimate level sometimes, and study of lots of history. It's going to be controversial and maybe even shocking, so brace yourself for a moment before reacting please. I think peaceful societies self-destruct. With a few notable exceptions t…

Tunisia is self-destructing, has one of the world highest divorce rate, slow birth rate that will make it disappear if not solved early, more than 10% of the population working/living abroad, and enough social/life mess that I/my friends want to somehow leave the country and live in another place.

Yet, we did no wars, made no commercial/art explosion (even food we don't produce).

It's not about wars, allies or anything else. I summarize it to the following:

- Justice: Yes, justice is point number one. You must have justice.

- Values: That's why religion works, it keeps values deep inside and transmit them from a generation to another.

- Education: To avoid mess, and poverty.

Military? No, you don't really need it. You need values. Look at 2006 war between Isreal and a few folks in Huzb Allah. Isreal has the strongest military in the region, along with support from the USA and Liban (gov), yet they failed.

Re: Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implications are serious.

#123

Post by yardie » Sat, Aug 20, 2011, 11:28 AM UTC

sliverstorm wrote: post #61

pyre wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I won't base too much too heavily on it. The idea that blacks were sub-human was once "public knowledge" because everyone had an anecdote about a black person doing something stupid. It should be stated that: * 'Common sense' is not necessarily common. * 'Public knowledge' doesn't always match up to reality and can often be influenced by social biases (i.e. you may only remember the cases of a man getting the shaft i…

http://web.archive.org/web/20070627182454/http://www.grant-t... ^60% of divorce settlements favorable to women, 40% even, 10% favorable to men. UK, 2004. http://www.attorneys.com/legal_center/articles/child_custody... ^10-15% of men have sole custody of children http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120700651883978623.html ^3.6% of alimony recipients are male, 2006 I am not a fountain of sources, so I hope this will do for…

1. I agree that most divorce proceedings do favor women.

2. As a friend of an attorney who tells me that most of his male clients never seek custody and don't even petition for visitation rights until the CS payments start coming due this is completely inline with our society. I'm sorry, but once the divorce is finished most guys just want to move on with their life, the family they had becomes an encumberment. Most would prefer to be free to start over than continue being reminded of a failed relationship. That's just the way it is.

3. The primary purpose of the act of having sex is reproduction. The courts have already decided that every time you have sex you implicitly agree that a baby might result. It doesn't matter if it's oral, anal, or vaginal if someone gets pregnant out of it you can't back out you've already given consent. Even before reading the article I already knew the outcome, skimming to the bottom confirmed 30-40 years of court cases on the same matter.

Re: Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implications are serious.

#124

Post by emanuer » Sat, Aug 20, 2011, 11:30 AM UTC

mattm wrote: post #106

emanuer wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your assumption is correct, I am European. I don’t feel comfortable to discuss private things in public, but I will state some facts. In my social circle there were 8 marriages between Japanese (all women) and foreigners. 4 ended in the past 3 years and were mainly attributed to different expectations of intimacy. The article http://goo.gl/QlAfx gives a very good description. I am unable to find a reputable source, b…

I don't agree that Japanese don't want sex. How else do you explain love hotels being found everywhere?

Shame culture. Japanese couples are ashamed that their neighbors might notice something. Therefor they prefer to go to some anonymous place. Furthermore have you ever been to an average Tokyo, Osaka flat? They are incredibly tiny and the most unromantic surrounding imaginable.

Re: Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implications are serious.

#125

Post by yummyfajitas » Sat, Aug 20, 2011, 11:33 AM UTC

usaar333 wrote: post #109

lionhearted wrote: post #44

I have a theory that I haven't found expounded before. It came from a combination of travel through 60+ countries, living and working and interacting with local people on a pretty intimate level sometimes, and study of lots of history. It's going to be controversial and maybe even shocking, so brace yourself for a moment before reacting please. I think peaceful societies self-destruct. With a few notable exceptions t…

Another theory: As this article points out a lot of woman aren't marrying or having kids because "being both employed and married is tough in Asia.". In other words, these countries have enough equality where women are allowed in the labor force but not enough where the society has set up strong institutions to deal with women in the labor force. Another economist article dealt with the impossibility of finding day c…

I'm not sure how your policy recommendation relates to your initial observation (gender equality -> fertility).

How does forcing the childless (note: people of both genders can be childless) to subsidize parents promote gender equality?

(I'm not disagreeing with your suggesting that you can subsidize something to get more of it, I'm just trying to figure out how your last paragraph relates to the rest of your post.)

Re: Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implications are serious.

#126

Post by emanuer » Sat, Aug 20, 2011, 11:34 AM UTC

marvin wrote: post #110

emanuer wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your assumption is correct, I am European. I don’t feel comfortable to discuss private things in public, but I will state some facts. In my social circle there were 8 marriages between Japanese (all women) and foreigners. 4 ended in the past 3 years and were mainly attributed to different expectations of intimacy. The article http://goo.gl/QlAfx gives a very good description. I am unable to find a reputable source, b…

Japanese don't need/want sex? Surely the Japanese are as horny as the rest of us. You'd have to come up with some pretty convincing data (surveys aren't worth anything when asking questions about sex) to convince me that there is some great difference in libido between Western and Eastern cultures.

There is no data other than surveys I could think of to prove this “allegation”. I am sorry; you will have to remain unconvinced.

On a side note, I did not believe it either. But the fact that a couple would want to have sex every week, or even more never ceased to blow the mind of Japanese people I talked to.

Re: Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implications are serious.

#127

Post by emanuer » Sat, Aug 20, 2011, 11:48 AM UTC

nhaehnle wrote: post #105

emanuer wrote: post #67

I am married to a Japanese and live here right now, so I can only comment on the situation of the country. I will try to give an economical assessment of the situation. As you might be aware Japan had a “lost decade” during the 90s. It experienced almost no growth of the GDP. There are many theories as to why, but the most convincing one is: The Japanese “Baby Boomers” retired during this decade. In fact the percenta…

As you might be aware Japan had a “lost decade” during the 90s. It experienced almost no growth of the GDP. There are many theories as to why, but the most convincing one is: The Japanese “Baby Boomers” retired during this decade. Richard Koo has a different view on this, one that should also inform the thinking in the US and rest of the Western world these days. According to him, the Japanese "lost decade" was cause…

Yes I am aware of this point of view. I think, the trigger for the lost decade can be attributed to the housing bubble. Yet, the almost complete stop in the GDP's growth and the complete immunity to monetary stimuli (~0% interest rate for 20 years) are impossible to explain by the bubble collapse.

Re: Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implications are serious.

#128

Post by michaelfeathers » Sat, Aug 20, 2011, 12:03 PM UTC

lionhearted wrote: post #44

I have a theory that I haven't found expounded before. It came from a combination of travel through 60+ countries, living and working and interacting with local people on a pretty intimate level sometimes, and study of lots of history. It's going to be controversial and maybe even shocking, so brace yourself for a moment before reacting please. I think peaceful societies self-destruct. With a few notable exceptions t…

I've heard this thesis before, but I can't find a link. It was put in terms of patriarchal versus matriarchal societies. It posited the same sort of cycle.

Re: Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implications are serious.

#129

Post by vacri » Sat, Aug 20, 2011, 12:07 PM UTC

Mz wrote: post #108

yaix wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And apart from a flawed analysis of the Japanese society, on what historical examples are you basing your "theory"? Oh, and just to have a counter example: Switzerland

I'm confused by your comment. Are you proposing Switzerland as a "peaceful" country as a counter example? Due to mountainous terrain, they are fairly "isolated"/protected from invasion (one of the points above re what works to provide long term peace) and they also have about 2/3's of the adult (male?) population as part of a standing militia (which is in line somewhat with another point: "military supremacy"). http:…

An armed society is a polite society

Go check out sub-Saharan Africa, and see if that aphorism holds.

If you can think of more than just guns, Switzerland is a counter-example because of its politics - instead of the OP's suggested "Japan should just join in the next war, it's necessary to save it's society", Switzerland has pursued a long policy of neutral politics. It doesn't "simply join in on wars on whatever side looks stronger". It specifically avoids doing so.

Re: Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implications are serious.

#130

Post by wisty » Sat, Aug 20, 2011, 12:11 PM UTC

usaar333 wrote: post #109

lionhearted wrote: post #44

I have a theory that I haven't found expounded before. It came from a combination of travel through 60+ countries, living and working and interacting with local people on a pretty intimate level sometimes, and study of lots of history. It's going to be controversial and maybe even shocking, so brace yourself for a moment before reacting please. I think peaceful societies self-destruct. With a few notable exceptions t…

Another theory: As this article points out a lot of woman aren't marrying or having kids because "being both employed and married is tough in Asia.". In other words, these countries have enough equality where women are allowed in the labor force but not enough where the society has set up strong institutions to deal with women in the labor force. Another economist article dealt with the impossibility of finding day c…

Having lived in China, I agree. There is gender inequality there, and there's a lot of gender stereotyping (girls like X, boys like Y), and there's a deep-seated preference for sons (which is gradually changing, as the gener imbalance means men can't find wives unless their parents buy a house as dowry - and people are realizing that propagating the family name is getting a little overpriced); but the roles of women are much different than in Japan and Korea. 70 years ago, that wasn't true - China was even more inequitable (think foot-binding). I think China's improved, while Japan and Korea stayed conservative.

I mean, would you really want to marry if that meant giving up your career and becoming an unpaid cleaner / cook / babysitter, while your SO worked 70 hour weeks to make up for the fact that you weren't contributing? Weird choice.