Lambda School leaked documents show poor performance over the last two years • Hacker News Board

Re: Lambda School leaked documents show poor performance over the last two years

#321

Post by lazide » Tue, Oct 26, 2021, 5:31 AM UTC

codr7 wrote: post #302

lazide wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depending on how sick she was there are such programs in every state. If she needed round the clock care like it sounds, she was sick enough most likely. He also could probably have declared bankruptcy early and been able to focus more on learning useful skills instead of killing himself trying to pay bills he never could. That is what bankruptcy is for. But hard to say what was really going on.

Right, learning useful skills while declaring bankruptcy. Something tells me you've never even come close to walking in those shoes. The second you stop generating profit, the state starts treating you like a broken toy.

Guess again my friend. Ate old canned food for a very long time while my parents declared bankruptcy as a kid - twice - so we at least had a roof over our head, and wore the same two shirts for years too. My Mom finished a 4 year degree several years afterwards that helped us pull out of the economic collapse of the aerospace industry in the area that had trapped us - and was studying late in the night to do it. While working a very demanding full time job too.

There are methods to avoid being destroyed by situations like this, but some never try or don’t bother to even figure it out. Doesn’t mean it still isn’t hard work, and stressful as hell, but it is there to stop the destruction. Folks have to look and try though.

Re: Lambda School leaked documents show poor performance over the last two years

#322

Post by AlchemistCamp » Tue, Oct 26, 2021, 5:38 AM UTC

whakim wrote: post #187

sam0x17 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One huge mistake I think a lot (but not all of) the bootcamps are making is taking the easy route of simply using JavaScript to teach both frontend and backend. JavaScript is a TERRIBLE first programming language. I usually have to spend 2-3 sessions per mentee explaining the idiosyncrasies of JavaScript, where some of the OOP concepts actually come from, and how things work in other languages to put into context the…

Yes, javascript has some quirks. But most bootcamps are trying to get their students from "zero to employable developer" in a very short amount of time, and "employable entry-level developer" is almost always synonymous with "employable entry-level web developer". Given that mandate, you basically have to teach people the basics of web applications, which means talking about what happens on the client, which means ja…

Better yet would be Ruby. It's much more beginner friendly and is a thoroughly consistent OO language—i.e., everything is an object, including numbers and strings.

Ruby's also got a much better web dev story, which is good for junior devs (without ML and/or infrastructure backgrounds) who are looking to enter the market. After learning Ruby, either JS or Java could be a great 2nd language.

Re: Lambda School leaked documents show poor performance over the last two years

#323

Post by kirso » Tue, Oct 26, 2021, 5:48 AM UTC

sam0x17 wrote: post #51

sam0x17 wrote: post #24

It isn't just Lambda School. I mentor for [insert large coding bootcamp here] and I will say things have been going badly across the board for more than 50% of students. They recently had to cut a lot of staff, and completion rates seem to hover around only 50-60% when you take into account all the students they remove from this calculation when they withdraw for "personal reasons". The employment numbers I don't hav…

This one particular student sticks with me. He was in his 60s-70s, and had a burgeoning career in IT/Security in the late 90s, but quit his job to take care of his ailing mother around 2001 or so. He took care of her, living off of her reverse mortgage for 20 years, but now she has passed away, and the term of the reverse mortgage ends soon (or I believe by now has ended) so the bank will be re-posessing his house, h…

Yep, that's also because: "Earlier this year researchers at the London School of Economics released a paper titled, “Why Do People Stay Poor?” that illustrated how the lack of initial wealth (and not motivation or talent) is what keeps people in poverty. The researchers tested this by randomly allocating wealth (i.e. livestock) to female villagers in Bangladesh and then waited to see how that wealth transfer would affect their future finances. As their paper states:

[We] find that, if the program pushes individuals above a threshold level of initial assets, then they escape poverty, but, if it does not, they slide back into poverty…Our findings imply that large one-off transfers that enable people to take on more productive occupations can help alleviate persistent poverty.

Their paper clearly illustrates that many poor people stay poor not because of their talent/motivation, but because they are in low-paying jobs that they must work to survive."

More on this here: https://ofdollarsanddata.com/why-do-poor-people-stay-poor/

Re: Lambda School leaked documents show poor performance over the last two years

#324

Post by dogman144 » Tue, Oct 26, 2021, 5:58 AM UTC

If you have been remotely involved in mentoring aspiring engineers, and especially if you did it at the nonprofit level, the data and student feedback out of lambda was looking obviously bad as of 1-2 years ago. If you threw a test rock into a alumni or currently attending code school student forum, bad lambda stories always came up.

What’s so distasteful about this is a lot of the code school community closed ranks around Lambda, refused to acknowledge really absurd student experiences and bad employment rates, and at worst still partnered with it. My guess is this is because admitting a place as polished as Lambda had a problem leads to questions about other schools out there. When you top it off with the insane ISAs Lambda wanted, that school and its defenders put themselves in an extremely ethically dubious position.

Re: Lambda School leaked documents show poor performance over the last two years

#325

Post by kirso » Tue, Oct 26, 2021, 6:01 AM UTC

lmm wrote: post #303

ec109685 wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a fascinating take. I consider all the advanced math that is needed for a CS degree unnecessary gate keeping. I took several years of calculus to graduate, and while I still grok the concepts somewhat, I by no means mastered any of it. It doesn’t feel necessary at all where I am now.

I don't think knowing any specific mathematics is necessary for CS, but having the capacity to learn mathematics is, and most people who have that capacity end up with a degree somewhere in the science umbrella. You don't need calculus specifically, but you need the ability to abstract, to form rules and express precisely where they apply and where they do not.

Maybe the question is then whether someone has that curiosity about maths?

Re: Lambda School leaked documents show poor performance over the last two years

#326

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Oct 26, 2021, 6:09 AM UTC

ptmcc wrote: post #320

amotinga wrote: post #311

serious question: what does lambda school or any other bootcamp provide that isn't available online already for free or cheap? freecodecamp.org theodinproject limitless various courses. curriculum is out there, /r/learnprogramming is very helpful, plethora of discords. what do they provide in 2022 that is worth ~10-20k?

Structure, guidance, accountability, connections. At least theoretically. It's wonderful that so much material is free, but it's an overwhelming amount of information for the uninitiated. Some people can self-motivate and self-teach starting from zero. Some cannot. Some would just prefer a formal curriculum and instructor. Nothing wrong with that. And the best bootcamps have a direct relationship into companies for i…

[deleted]

Re: Lambda School leaked documents show poor performance over the last two years

#327

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Oct 26, 2021, 6:09 AM UTC

swyx wrote: post #315

amotinga wrote: post #311

serious question: what does lambda school or any other bootcamp provide that isn't available online already for free or cheap? freecodecamp.org theodinproject limitless various courses. curriculum is out there, /r/learnprogramming is very helpful, plethora of discords. what do they provide in 2022 that is worth ~10-20k?

bootcamp grad here (different bootcamp - Fullstack Academy in NYC). i completed freecodecamp before doing my bootcamp. did not feel job ready, did not have any leads on jobs, barely made it thru freecodecamp copying and pasting code that kinda sorta worked. let me put it this way. at the end of my bootcamp they had a "hiring day". ~20 employers came by for ~40 students, including Google. I ended up getting a job with…

[deleted]

Re: Lambda School leaked documents show poor performance over the last two years

#328

Post by amotinga » Tue, Oct 26, 2021, 6:10 AM UTC

ptmcc wrote: post #320

amotinga wrote: post #311

serious question: what does lambda school or any other bootcamp provide that isn't available online already for free or cheap? freecodecamp.org theodinproject limitless various courses. curriculum is out there, /r/learnprogramming is very helpful, plethora of discords. what do they provide in 2022 that is worth ~10-20k?

Structure, guidance, accountability, connections. At least theoretically. It's wonderful that so much material is free, but it's an overwhelming amount of information for the uninitiated. Some people can self-motivate and self-teach starting from zero. Some cannot. Some would just prefer a formal curriculum and instructor. Nothing wrong with that. And the best bootcamps have a direct relationship into companies for i…

structure. assuming it costs 50k to develop curriculum and 1000 ppl take it price becomes 50 per person. more people take it, price if it (theoretically) has to move towards 0. guidance. this one I can understand. having person always available to help out when something unexpected happens, which btw happens constantly is extremely helpful. this is def value added.

accountability. this one I'm not sure what you mean. meaning I invest 10k now I really have to make it work. yeah, unfortunately people tend to value expensive things more than free.

connections. yes, this is perhaps biggest selling point, the idea that they will place the student, or at the very least help significantly.

hmmm... I wonder if there is a way to quantify that. is it really ~ 1k/week to do all of that?

Re: Lambda School leaked documents show poor performance over the last two years

#329

Post by amotinga » Tue, Oct 26, 2021, 6:12 AM UTC

swyx wrote: post #315

amotinga wrote: post #311

serious question: what does lambda school or any other bootcamp provide that isn't available online already for free or cheap? freecodecamp.org theodinproject limitless various courses. curriculum is out there, /r/learnprogramming is very helpful, plethora of discords. what do they provide in 2022 that is worth ~10-20k?

bootcamp grad here (different bootcamp - Fullstack Academy in NYC). i completed freecodecamp before doing my bootcamp. did not feel job ready, did not have any leads on jobs, barely made it thru freecodecamp copying and pasting code that kinda sorta worked. let me put it this way. at the end of my bootcamp they had a "hiring day". ~20 employers came by for ~40 students, including Google. I ended up getting a job with…

if you somehow managed to get 160k out of the bootcamp I would guess bootcamp is only part of why you got such an offer. you are extreme outlier.

Re: Lambda School leaked documents show poor performance over the last two years

#330

Post by ZhangSWEFAANG » Tue, Oct 26, 2021, 6:12 AM UTC

kirso wrote: post #323

sam0x17 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This one particular student sticks with me. He was in his 60s-70s, and had a burgeoning career in IT/Security in the late 90s, but quit his job to take care of his ailing mother around 2001 or so. He took care of her, living off of her reverse mortgage for 20 years, but now she has passed away, and the term of the reverse mortgage ends soon (or I believe by now has ended) so the bank will be re-posessing his house, h…

Yep, that's also because: "Earlier this year researchers at the London School of Economics released a paper titled, “Why Do People Stay Poor?” that illustrated how the lack of initial wealth (and not motivation or talent) is what keeps people in poverty. The researchers tested this by randomly allocating wealth (i.e. livestock) to female villagers in Bangladesh and then waited to see how that wealth transfer would af…

This is like the escape velocity of wealth.