Lambda School leaked documents show poor performance over the last two years • Hacker News Board

Re: Lambda School leaked documents show poor performance over the last two years

#51

Post by sam0x17 » Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 5:50 PM UTC

sam0x17 wrote: post #24

It isn't just Lambda School. I mentor for [insert large coding bootcamp here] and I will say things have been going badly across the board for more than 50% of students. They recently had to cut a lot of staff, and completion rates seem to hover around only 50-60% when you take into account all the students they remove from this calculation when they withdraw for "personal reasons". The employment numbers I don't hav…

This one particular student sticks with me. He was in his 60s-70s, and had a burgeoning career in IT/Security in the late 90s, but quit his job to take care of his ailing mother around 2001 or so. He took care of her, living off of her reverse mortgage for 20 years, but now she has passed away, and the term of the reverse mortgage ends soon (or I believe by now has ended) so the bank will be re-posessing his house, his only remaining asset. The guy was not doing well. Even though he was quite smart and had C++ in his distant background, he was making almost zero progress in the course. It soon became clear that he was so drained from working 12-hour days at a Costco warehouse (and doing other similar menial jobs) 6 days a week (and still not making enough to even pay his medical bills) that he wasn't going to be able to make any progress. I repeatedly recommended him for a scholarship (because of his intelligence and skill) but I never heard back, and eventually he dropped off my schedule. I did everything I could to give him what he needed to succeed, but ultimately there was nothing I could do. It haunts me. This country is so fucked.

Re: Lambda School leaked documents show poor performance over the last two years

#52

Post by mym1990 » Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 5:51 PM UTC

Anecdotal, but here is my experience: I graduated from General Assembly back in 2015, and bootcamps were just starting to crop up back then. I really liked the experience but it was definitely very clunky, I don't think I learned much about code. My first job afterwards ended up being a support engineer role for a year where I touched code maybe a handful of times, I started out at 55k which I was ELATED with. I then got an opportunity to learn development on the Salesforce platform and took a paycut to 35k just so I can learn the ropes and be 'coding'. This proved to be invaluable experience. 1 year later I moved to SF and I haven't looked back since.

It wasn't really the trajectory I saw back in 2015, but it felt that the bootcamps focused so much on teaching popular JavaScript tools and not really how to problem solve or even the language basics or even what the technology space can offer. I think it is a very tough thing to get right in 3 months(my class length) or even less...

Re: Lambda School leaked documents show poor performance over the last two years

#53

Post by honkycat » Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 5:52 PM UTC

paulpauper wrote: post #18

999900000999 wrote: post #12

>The school recently sent him a letter demanding his banking information so that it could track direct deposits from a job. If he doesn't comply, it threatened to charge him his full tuition of $30,000 regardless of whether he gets a job. How disgusting. He should probably tell them no. Even if they wrote some non sense allowing this in the income share agreement, let them go to court. I've never met a successful boo…

After factoring in all these huge fees and other hidden costs, traditional college is a better deal, and the degree is actuality valid credential, instead of a certificate, which is useless in the eyes of most employers. Plus, colleges have tons of financial aid with far less punitive repayment conditions or upfront costs.

Anecdotal: I went to an "expensive fancy" private college and I was lucky enough to have parents who knew how to advocate for financial aid.

In the end I ended up with +40k in scholarships as a mediocre high school student, plus a bunch of state grants.

I graduated with I like college. There is a right way to do it as an average student:

- Two years of cheap community college to get the chaff out of the way - Two years in a better school for the higher level classes.

You can't think of it is a party or 'summer camp' which is an image which is sold to a lot of young people. You are there to learn a skill, improve yourself, and graduate into a career.

Re: Lambda School leaked documents show poor performance over the last two years

#54

Post by bingohbangoh » Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 5:52 PM UTC

minimaxir wrote: post #49

bingohbangoh wrote: post #46

Wonder if Austen is gonna make an appearance and say hes happy to answer any questions

Here's the last time Austen answered questions about Lambda School, which did not go well: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26948258

FWIW, I greatly appreciate when founders go to these lengths but this happens over and over again. It does not feel significant anymore and rings hollow.

Re: Lambda School leaked documents show poor performance over the last two years

#55

Post by throwaway789257 » Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 5:53 PM UTC

I used to work as a technical recruiter and made several hires out of coding bootcamps (though never from Lambda, which didn't exist at the time).

One rule of thumb that we drew after many trials was that, if a candidate coming out of a coding bootcamp did not have a math or science background prior to that bootcamp, they probably would not pass our interview process.

That is, people with a certain intellectual foundation and aptitude can acquire useful skills from coding bootcamps. But people without that aptitude will not obtain it simply because they attended a coding bootcamp.

Separately, while I appreciate that Vincent got answers to questions that many people are asking, the fact that he had to hide his intentions to get an interview with Austen is exhibit number 1 why people have grown to mistrust reporters.

And that's interesting, because often you can't have both. That is, either you accept that corporations lie while the press plays by certain rules of honesty, which prevent them from getting past the smokescreen of lies. Or you support the press in its schemes to penetrate the smokescreen by using deception themselves. But if you support them against Lambda, then you should support them, too, in lying to the institutions you may support, which are also hiding something. Muckrakers need to disguise themselves.

DELETED: A sentence claiming that Vincent runs Coder Pad and has a conflict of interest. I apologize for the error. See his comment below.

Re: Lambda School leaked documents show poor performance over the last two years

#56

Post by sam0x17 » Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 5:55 PM UTC

threatofrain wrote: post #50

sam0x17 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One huge mistake I think a lot (but not all of) the bootcamps are making is taking the easy route of simply using JavaScript to teach both frontend and backend. JavaScript is a TERRIBLE first programming language. I usually have to spend 2-3 sessions per mentee explaining the idiosyncrasies of JavaScript, where some of the OOP concepts actually come from, and how things work in other languages to put into context the…

JS is a small language when you consider the core of constructs which are in use today. I'd ballpark JS to be around 80-120 "constructs", which will differ based on how you divide semantic and conceptual units of learning. I'd ballpark Go to be around 80-120 as well. A junior developer who is just learning how to code will not deal with all of JS historical baggage; they will deal with historical JS when joining a la…

Except they will actually deal with all of it. First question I get is usually "what is var" followed by "when do I use arrow functions and when do I use normal functions" shortly followed by "why does this code work with a normal function but not with an arrow function" or "why does my code using classes and arrow functions not work on [ancient browser some family member has for some reason]?". I'll also get numerous questions about whether it is a good practice to do things like `x++` where `x` is a string because they noticed that it happens to work and legitimately want to know if this is good practice / by design (oof). Don't even get me started on the "equality in js" discussion.

The key problem with js is the relationship between objects and functions is extremely confusing. You end up having to explain associative arrays, and spend 30+ minutes doing some hand-waving to even begin to describe what an object actually is in JavaScript. Then they get it. Contrast that with something like Java or even Rust where, despite the other complexities, it's pretty clear what the data is and how it is stored.

Re: Lambda School leaked documents show poor performance over the last two years

#57

Post by wly_cdgr » Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 5:55 PM UTC

The profitability slide with the cute animal pictures is a pretty good summary of everything that's disgusting about startup culture. Allred is clearly a huge piece of shit & YC should be ashamed of having funded this scam that preys on some of the most desperate, credulous, and vulnerable populations. Not that other bootcamps are better - and definitely not that most universities are better, either. Most are as bad or worse

Re: Lambda School leaked documents show poor performance over the last two years

#58

Post by whoisjuan » Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 5:56 PM UTC

LurkingPenguin wrote: post #39

whoisjuan wrote: post #19

In their eagerness to disrupt traditional education, all these programs forgot that the one single thing that makes traditional university education succesful is teaching people with aptitude and drive. To get accepted and graduate from a reputable university you have to get good results in standardized tests and work your self through multiple courses for at least 3 years. That by itself doesn't mean anything but th…

I can't speak to the quality of the people who are attending these bootcamp programs (I wouldn't at all be surprised that most of them aren't "successful" for a variety of reasons) but as far as traditional university education being "successful", there are tons of university graduates who have little to show for it except a piece of paper and a load of student debt. A lot of kids today go to university because they'…

I agree with what you're saying. Traditional education is ripe for disruption, but this is clearly not the model that will do that. I imagine that there are high quality students that come out of this bootcamps but how consistently can they produce a good outcome for both the students and the prospective employers?

I think the tech industry needs to realize that their talent needs can't be solved this way. We need a more proactive and consistent system to identify potential and educate students. I think VC money creates incentives that impact quality, so for starters we should be thinking of these businesses as real non-profit organizations. Not wannabe mega tech corps.

Re: Lambda School leaked documents show poor performance over the last two years

#59

Post by twofornone » Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 5:59 PM UTC

It's high time we as a society rejected this nonsensical idea that you can teach anyone anything. Not everyone is suited to learn programming at a professional level; certainly not by cramming in x weeks at some bootcamp. For most students I suspect these are effectively scams. Not unlike college these days...

Re: Lambda School leaked documents show poor performance over the last two years

#60

Post by Fellshard » Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 5:59 PM UTC

threatofrain wrote: post #50

sam0x17 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One huge mistake I think a lot (but not all of) the bootcamps are making is taking the easy route of simply using JavaScript to teach both frontend and backend. JavaScript is a TERRIBLE first programming language. I usually have to spend 2-3 sessions per mentee explaining the idiosyncrasies of JavaScript, where some of the OOP concepts actually come from, and how things work in other languages to put into context the…

JS is a small language when you consider the core of constructs which are in use today. I'd ballpark JS to be around 80-120 "constructs", which will differ based on how you divide semantic and conceptual units of learning. I'd ballpark Go to be around 80-120 as well. A junior developer who is just learning how to code will not deal with all of JS historical baggage; they will deal with historical JS when joining a la…

You have to deal with every idiosyncrasy as soon as you begin using external dependencies (and even many standard browser features), because there is no standard convention at any one time, much less over time. There is no fixed paradigm, no common way of doing things, and so the student must first understand how each library frames the world differently, and then work out how to composite those worlds into anything approaching coherence.