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The fatiguing effects of camera use in virtual meetings

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Re: The fatiguing effects of camera use in virtual meetings

#261

Post by sundvor »

dont__panic wrote: post #233
sundvor wrote: post #192

I've put some effort into my setup in the past 24 months; multiple Elgato and Hue lights, a Streamdeck for macros and scene control, condenser microphone on an arm with an audio interface, OBS studio etc. I am not a streamer, but I'm likely set up like one; I've studied their methods of light and composition, and learned a lot. I have some serious scarring from facial surgery decades past, and being able to control t…

In all fairness, I just spent a couple of weeks looking into webcams, and I ended up getting a Logitech StreamCam as well -- I almost got a Brio, but from what I can tell, really nice 60fps 1080p on the StreamCam looks better than 4K 30fps on the Brio. I really like the StreamCam so far, and I would say it's probably the best camera on the market right now for all-purpose video usage (not quite as expensive as the to…

Agree, it's really good for a webcam given enough light. Without enough light, it turns extremely mediocre - but that's what I've controlled for - and applies to ALL cameras. (A pro camera would make bad lighting less bad, but would always benefit from improved lighting.)

I'm kind of comparing that part of the setup to what pro youtubers use. I don't have the budget for a proper mirrorless though, and it'd be largely wasted on e.g. Google Meet's compression algos - bearing in mind I don't stream public or make youtube videos.

The narrow front profile of the Streamcam was a nice bonus when I just put it on my new Flex arm. I'm super impressed by how well this works, getting the camera eye level in front of my 32"s. Have gone 15 months without one, kicking myself now that I didn't do it earlier - just didn't think of it.

I will have the Elgatos on low/warm setting in between meetings. They're really nice.

Re: The fatiguing effects of camera use in virtual meetings

#262

Post by sundvor »

deepspace wrote: post #242
aantix wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where do you position your camera so it both looks like you're making eye contact yet you can see your screen/audience?

I would love to see an answer to this. I use a 43" 4K monitor, and have not been able to find a good position for the camera. Below the screen: Unflattering view up my nostrils. Above the screen: Makes me look as if I am trying to avoid eye contact. To the side: Combination of unflattering and no eye contact. I wish there were software that could take input from two cameras (high and low) and create a fake view of me…

See above; I sympathise completely, was not happy with how my camera was positioned before. It's not perfect, but nonetheless a huge improvement.

Re: The fatiguing effects of camera use in virtual meetings

#263

Post by sundvor »

aantix wrote: post #248
deepspace wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would love to see an answer to this. I use a 43" 4K monitor, and have not been able to find a good position for the camera. Below the screen: Unflattering view up my nostrils. Above the screen: Makes me look as if I am trying to avoid eye contact. To the side: Combination of unflattering and no eye contact. I wish there were software that could take input from two cameras (high and low) and create a fake view of me…

Would you like this middle of the monitor webcam? https://www.thecentercam.com/

That's a great idea! I don't like how the clip eats up display at the top - it should be possible to have this more compact, like e.g. Logitech's top of monitor mounts.

Would be nice if they had a hinge on it so that it could swivel 90 degrees out of sight when not in use.

I'm achieving largely the same with my flex mount solution, although I do have to have it to the left a bit due to my middle top monitor. I have a lot more of the monitor obscured though, but it's not that bad.

When e.g. Samsung perfects their under display cameras, we can hope for built in behind pixel cameras in regular monitors. Give it a few years!

Re: The fatiguing effects of camera use in virtual meetings

#264

Post by makeitdouble »

BobbyJo wrote: post #185
makeitdouble wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In my experience, there's also far less participation when everybody has their camera off. I feel this is a blessing in most cases. Remembering in-person meetings, half of the “participation” was asking to get back one slide before to check a point that went too fast, questions on points that are dealt with two slides further, people getting asked questions as a punishment for being visibly bored to death, and fact…

> get back one slide This is all even worse if you try to carry over the same process to remote work. I feel like virtual meetings increase the emphasis on slides too much. In person, the presenter can be up front, gesturing, pointing, really bringing animation to the slides. In virtual meetings it's just the screen share of the slide and a talking head. It's a horribly unengaging experience.

While I sympathize with your point, I kinda wonder how much it really helped to have a charismatic peoples deliver meh information.

More and more I see meetings that stop for 30s~1min because the presenter raised a point that hit us and we take a few moments to digest/double check. On the other end basic reporting meetings got a lot shorter.

Basically, if there is nothing to be said, it just ends up with that unengaging, really boring feeling. If there was any interest in the subject, time goes faster as we’re also checking a lot in the background. I kinda see the default boringness as a feature really.

Re: The fatiguing effects of camera use in virtual meetings

#265

Post by baby »

baby wrote: post #134
incrudible wrote: post #130

Another benefit of just keeping cameras off is that it reduces the impact of lookism, which is exacerbated by camera distortion and unfavorable lighting. Of course, this puts stronger emphasis on audible cues. You may not realize it, but people can hear you smile. This is a bit anecdotal: People on the ASD spectrum may perform better on just auditory stimuli versus audio-visual integration. There's certainly a trade-…

Lookism?

> Lookism is a term that describes the discriminatory treatment of people who are considered physically unattractive. ... Many people make judgments of others based on their physical appearance which influence how they respond to these people.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lookism#:~:text=Lookism%20is%2....

Re: The fatiguing effects of camera use in virtual meetings

#266

Post by BobbyJo »

pwr-electronics wrote: post #238
BobbyJo wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Couldn't agree more with this, however it's hard to make happen in practice. A lot of times people are so caught up in their own tasks and responsibilities they don't set aside time to read up before a meeting, not to mention slides/docs are rarely laid out well enough for people to inform themselves completely.

You can't make your coworkers do anything. But if you're the boss, you can create whatever type of meeting culture you want. Some companies do read-aheads very well, which I really like. The point isn't to come completely informed. Just enough to prepare some thoughts and questions.

> But if you're the boss, you can create whatever type of meeting culture you want.

If only. Bosses can really only mess things up. Leadership sets expectations, but employees as a group have to keep each other in check, and propagate the culture to new hires as they come on board, or things deflate pretty quickly.

Re: The fatiguing effects of camera use in virtual meetings

#267

Post by alexjplant »

par wrote: post #253
alexjplant wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a more affordable alternative to the Elgato ring light? I'd love a software-controlled USB ring light but $200 for such seems a bit steep.

have you checked amazon, there's items in the $30-70 price range. I got one a while back and it's served me well.

Yup... there are tons of USB ones but I have yet to find a unit that's software-controlled, i.e. turns on automatically when my webcam does.

Re: The fatiguing effects of camera use in virtual meetings

#268

Post by tharkun__ »

Buttons840 wrote: post #119
Lutger wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The perceived the need to keep the camera off during a meeting is a good indication there is something wrong with the meeting, not that it's a good thing to keep the camera off. We had some recurring meetings where people consistently didn't show up. The managers first impulse was to make the meeting mandatory. But the first thought should be: why are people not showing up? Engineers hate being unproductive, it shoul…

What's wrong with with someone turning off their camera and eating a snack while developers dive into the weeds for 15 minutes? Sometimes it's worthwhile for someone to be there just to make one or two important decisions in an hour long meeting. I've learned when you have a question for someone you need to say their name at the begining of the question, not the end, and give a few seconds of background - which is al…

What's wrong with someone being on camera and eating? If you book me for lunch, I'll show up. With video. Eating. Same as if we were in the office. Book me for lunch? Expect me to show up with a plate or ask you to "go talk over lunch".

If you have the camera off, I have no idea if you're listening. If we're in a regular meeting in an office I can see that you're disinterestedly looking at your cell phone and react accordingly if I really need your attention. If you're camera off in an online meeting I have to assume with every single thing that I say that you are distracted and even if I say your name I am not sure if you even heard me until I say your name and wait for your acknowledgement (e.g. you turning on your camera or saying something to the effect of 'now I'm listening because I heard my name'). Seems like this is a real drag on productivity. This can obviously be different within an actual team that has a history of working together and working together well without the need for this. I.e. if you have a team meeting and you know every word is listened to even if everyone is off camera. That's not the kind of meeting we're talking about here though I think. We're talking about cross functional meeting between people that have lots of other stuff on their plate and at least half the meeting is not interesting to them.

Re: The fatiguing effects of camera use in virtual meetings

#269

Post by skydhash »

thrower123 wrote: post #230
sz4kerto wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm in far more meetings than I can possibly be productive in. > I'm also responsible for delivering code and 50-75% of my day is meetings. There's an organisational issue here.

It's an incredibly common one. Somehow, despite Peopleware being almost 35 years old, and pg's Maker Schedule, Manager's Schedule essay being twelve years old, we haven't learned anything and still have this incongruity that will not be reconciled in a direction which leads towards more productivity. At times it feels like managers like to schedule meetings in such a way as to make it impossible to get any engineerin…

Another thing I don’t like is managers sending you a notification for a meeting in 30 minutes, which throws your concentration out of the windows. Then finding out the reason of the meeting was because they have not read your status report. Or something that could have been answered in a couple of slack messages. And then it’s already 4pm and your work day ends at 5pm.

Re: The fatiguing effects of camera use in virtual meetings

#270

Post by smartbit »

aantix wrote: post #223
sundvor wrote: post #192

I've put some effort into my setup in the past 24 months; multiple Elgato and Hue lights, a Streamdeck for macros and scene control, condenser microphone on an arm with an audio interface, OBS studio etc. I am not a streamer, but I'm likely set up like one; I've studied their methods of light and composition, and learned a lot. I have some serious scarring from facial surgery decades past, and being able to control t…

Where do you position your camera so it both looks like you're making eye contact yet you can see your screen/audience?

The camera should be behind the screen. A cheap APS size 5Mpixel and a zoom lens are my ultimate setup. The sensor would have huge pixels that work in low light. With OLED this should be feasible, I guess. APS (or even full-size 24x36mm) would give small depth of field with little need for background blurr. A big bump on the back are the least of my worries.

The ultimate setup would be completed with

  - 43” curved 4k or 8k, not panorama 
  - build in color calibration
  - optional monitor hood
  - HiFi speakers left & right, bass at the bottom
  - build in directional microphone(s)
  - lamps on all sides to lighten-up face at night
  - (servo-) optical zoom out, e.g. for 2 attendees 
  - sensor(s) that detect color temperature pointing 
    behind the screen and adapts screen & lamps
    accordingly
  - able to share parts of the screen, eg half or quarter
  - works with all OS-es: mac, linux & windows
  - build-in bluetooth hub for keyboard, mouse & headset
  - 3.5mm headset jack in multiple locations, 
    e.g. left, middle & right
  - input for studio quality microphone 
  - support for attaching 2 or 3 computers
  - USB-C Power Delivery up to 240Watt each simultaneous
  - 10Gbit network switch to USB-C for each simultaneous
  - switch all inputs & outputs in one-go, 
    without plug-and-play events at each switch
  - able to swivel and adjust height 
  - mechanical switch to turn off camera & microphones
  - lasts 20 years
I don’t expect this to be ever made, but I keep on dreaming :-)
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