The fatiguing effects of camera use in virtual meetings • Hacker News Board

Re: The fatiguing effects of camera use in virtual meetings

#221

Post by nanny » Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 3:03 PM UTC

sdw1 wrote: post #217

nanny wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is your use case? There is really no need for a high-quality condenser mic in the vast majority of cases. For work meetings, voice chats, streaming, etc. the difference between an AT2020 and a high-quality mic will be entirely imperceptible.

To be fair, the AT2020 is a high-quality mic compared to the dollar store AirPods your colleagues are using...

Yes, that's pretty much my point. The commenter above asked for a high-quality condenser specifically. I doubt they want a U 87, so it's probably better to ask a different question (e.g. "what's the best condenser for the money?").

The difference between those dollar store air pods and any condenser on the first page of Amazon search results for "condenser mic" is going to be huge, but past like $50-100 nobody will be able to notice a difference over voice chat.

Re: The fatiguing effects of camera use in virtual meetings

#222

Post by tata71 » Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 3:05 PM UTC

karimabuseer wrote: post #210

sundvor wrote: post #192

I've put some effort into my setup in the past 24 months; multiple Elgato and Hue lights, a Streamdeck for macros and scene control, condenser microphone on an arm with an audio interface, OBS studio etc. I am not a streamer, but I'm likely set up like one; I've studied their methods of light and composition, and learned a lot. I have some serious scarring from facial surgery decades past, and being able to control t…

That sounds awesome dude. Amazing proactivity. I have a teeny desk so would love to have a setup like that once I get more space!

Stack/build upward if possible! Go standing-desk!

Re: The fatiguing effects of camera use in virtual meetings

#223

Post by aantix » Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 3:11 PM UTC

sundvor wrote: post #192

I've put some effort into my setup in the past 24 months; multiple Elgato and Hue lights, a Streamdeck for macros and scene control, condenser microphone on an arm with an audio interface, OBS studio etc. I am not a streamer, but I'm likely set up like one; I've studied their methods of light and composition, and learned a lot. I have some serious scarring from facial surgery decades past, and being able to control t…

Where do you position your camera so it both looks like you're making eye contact yet you can see your screen/audience?

Re: The fatiguing effects of camera use in virtual meetings

#224

Post by tata71 » Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 3:13 PM UTC

healsjnr1 wrote: post #149

theelous3 wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Turning the camera off is just a socially acceptable way of not showing up. Why do you think that someone with a camera off is not present? How can you honestly equate camera-off with absence? > There are exceptions of course imo it's the opposite. Rarely to never does it matter if you see my face in a meeting. It's an exceedingly rare exception that you should need to as a business requirement. Have you considered…

> Have you considered that... _you_ just like having your camera on, and like seeing other people? Yes, I think this is the whole point here. This is a bidirectional relationship. We all have biases, and for a lot of people wanting some physical concept of the person they are working with is one of them, so yeah, they might just like seeing your face. It's your prerogative to turn it off, but there is a very real cha…

Meetings take place across big tables, not with your faces taped to a cardboard box a foot away from each other to inspect your zits and boogers.

These are just digital calls that someone put poor representations of facial expressions alongside.

Re: The fatiguing effects of camera use in virtual meetings

#225

Post by SkyPuncher » Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 3:19 PM UTC

matsemann wrote: post #29

boglurker wrote: post #8

I haven't turned my camera on in meetings for over 8 months, I don't think anyone really cares that much, and I find some people like it because they feel less pressure to keep their own cameras on as a result. That's been my experience at least, I'm sure some people have bosses that require it for whatever reason which might make that not an option for everyone.

They care, they just don't want to pick a fight. They might judge you and believe the reason you're not on camera is because you're busy doing something else.

I think it's much more nuanced than you suggest.

My brother works in accounting and my father works in engineering. They rarely have their cameras on. I believe this stems from the fact that pre-COVID, they dealt with many things via telephone conference call. Everyone dialed in via a phone.

When the pandemic hit, they simply brought their phone conference tendencies over to Zoom. Nobody sees it as a problem because prior to COVID, video wouldn't have even been an option.

Re: The fatiguing effects of camera use in virtual meetings

#226

Post by syndacks » Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 3:19 PM UTC

matsemann wrote: post #27

To make a different point than all the camera naysayers so far: I I'd be WFH for two years during covid, and everyone had their cameras off, I'd go crazy. Not seeing a face for months, being stressed about the other party in a meeting not even paying attention, just speaking into a void etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panopticon

Re: The fatiguing effects of camera use in virtual meetings

#227

Post by lucumo » Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 3:21 PM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #204

lucumo wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What is up that you need someone else to have a camera pointing to their face that you can't have with their voices? Smiles, frowns, nods, glazed looks, puzzled looks, surprised looks, I-want-to-say-something-but-I-can't-get-a-word-in looks, zoning out, impatience, et cetera, et cetera. There's really a lot people communicate with their faces, both consciously and unconsciously.

People also focus their attention. If I'm at an in-person meeting of 5-8 people, and 3 of them get into a longer discussion about things that are irrelevant to me, and for understanding which I don't have the background, I can zone out and nobody cares, because nobody is looking at me . Everyone is looking at the people talking. On a video call, my zoned-out face will make the trio feel uneasy; instead of discussing…

I use people zoning out as a sign that the topic is not a good fit for this meeting, and should be discussed outside of it with a smaller group. That seems to work well to keep meetings quick and on point.

Re: The fatiguing effects of camera use in virtual meetings

#228

Post by BobbyJo » Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 3:26 PM UTC

pwr-electronics wrote: post #218

BobbyJo wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> get back one slide This is all even worse if you try to carry over the same process to remote work. I feel like virtual meetings increase the emphasis on slides too much. In person, the presenter can be up front, gesturing, pointing, really bringing animation to the slides. In virtual meetings it's just the screen share of the slide and a talking head. It's a horribly unengaging experience.

The easy fix to this is sharing presentation files before the meeting so everyone can follow along however they want. Meetings should mostly be to discuss the information that you already have, not to be surprised with brand new information.

Couldn't agree more with this, however it's hard to make happen in practice. A lot of times people are so caught up in their own tasks and responsibilities they don't set aside time to read up before a meeting, not to mention slides/docs are rarely laid out well enough for people to inform themselves completely.

Re: The fatiguing effects of camera use in virtual meetings

#229

Post by lucumo » Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 3:27 PM UTC

Lutger wrote: post #98

kodah wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some context: I'm a lead engineer on a team with six products. I keep my camera off in meetings. I'm in far more meetings than I can possibly be productive in. I'm also usually not the active speaker in meetings. Why stare into a camera when what my yearly bonuses are calculated on is work/team output? I've found most meetings I get into are either: - Developers who can't figure something out from documentation and a…

The perceived the need to keep the camera off during a meeting is a good indication there is something wrong with the meeting, not that it's a good thing to keep the camera off. We had some recurring meetings where people consistently didn't show up. The managers first impulse was to make the meeting mandatory. But the first thought should be: why are people not showing up? Engineers hate being unproductive, it shoul…

> The perceived need to keep the camera off during a meeting is a good indication there is something wrong with the meeting, not that it's a good thing to keep the camera off.

Reading this discussion, I start to feel the same way. People seem to use it as a coping mechanism to deal with bad meetings. Surely fixing the meetings would be a better thing.

Re: The fatiguing effects of camera use in virtual meetings

#230

Post by thrower123 » Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 3:33 PM UTC

sz4kerto wrote: post #53

kodah wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some context: I'm a lead engineer on a team with six products. I keep my camera off in meetings. I'm in far more meetings than I can possibly be productive in. I'm also usually not the active speaker in meetings. Why stare into a camera when what my yearly bonuses are calculated on is work/team output? I've found most meetings I get into are either: - Developers who can't figure something out from documentation and a…

> I'm in far more meetings than I can possibly be productive in. > I'm also responsible for delivering code and 50-75% of my day is meetings. There's an organisational issue here.

It's an incredibly common one. Somehow, despite Peopleware being almost 35 years old, and pg's Maker Schedule, Manager's Schedule essay being twelve years old, we haven't learned anything and still have this incongruity that will not be reconciled in a direction which leads towards more productivity.

At times it feels like managers like to schedule meetings in such a way as to make it impossible to get any engineering work done on the clock. I particularly hate the the 10:00 AM, 2:30 PM meeting stack for it's ability to slice the day into chunks that are difficult to use productively for deeper work.