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.NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

devblogs.microsoft.com

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Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#251

Post by int_19h »

saghm wrote: post #130
tomnipotent wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to the Stack Overflow developer survey, Visual Studio is still the second most-used IDE by professionals. Granted, SO has a very strong .NET community so there may be some bias.

IDE specifically, or editor in general? The former wouldn't really surprise me since most of the editors I see friends and coworkers using aren't really IDEs per se; I mostly see people using VS Code, Vim, Sublime, and maybe emacs occasionally. The only IDEs people I know ever talk about using besides VS are Jetbrains products and I guess Xcode for iOS dev.

VS Code has integrated builds, testing, and debugging. I would argue that, by any sensible definition of IDE, it's an IDE.

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#252

Post by tkubacki »

Hawxy wrote: post #218
tkubacki wrote: post #184

I've quite unique experience beeing .net dev turning into jvm ecosystem. My decision to switch was based on fact that web is growing and .Net is simply...not fitting there. Specifically what I mean is current VS is just not usable for web dev (comparing to Jetbrains tools), but what is even more important - there is nothing close to Spring Boot in terms of ecosystem richness (important for corpos) and even newest .ne…

> even newest .net 5 is much more cumbersome compared to eg. golang (important for startups). FYI .NET 6 + C# 10 has a ton of work invested into removing the "enterprise boilerplate" experience and making the language and frameworks more akin to node or go in terms of effort/LoC required to spit out a program: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/core/tutorials/top-l... There's also a few epics that are specifical…

Still Visual Studio is simply broken compared to IntelliJ (especially for web dev) and there is not even a fraction of libs available for .NET compared to Spring Boot (take a look here: https://start.spring.io/)

We will see in 10 yrs if they catch up....

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#253

Post by vyrotek »

lozenge wrote: post #211
vyrotek wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've become more convinced that VSCode doesn't implement certain features to not compete with VS. For example, support for File Nesting. https://github.com/microsoft/vscode/issues/6328 For a while there wasn't really another way to run SQL projects outside of VS. Data Studio recently got support for that though.

I think in this case it's more like "let's not implement something for one language". In VS the Solution Explorer lists Project Items, not files. Eg it lists DLL References. This means the entire tree view goes through the IVsProject interfaces and you open Solutions and Projects, not folders. VS Code works on files only and doesn't have a project system that can specify file nesting rules. The simple ask in the PR c…

I'd personally like it for Angular component files as well. I imagine there are several types of files that would benefit from being nested.

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#254

Post by oneplane »

ayende wrote: post #187
oneplane wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt that. Unless you specifically target win32 and its non-core replacements (like classic full-fat C#) there is nothing that VS has to offer that outdoes other programs. For the non-web world specifically, the part that was Windows Server and Windows Desktop is simply a dead end outside of niches. And within the niches, comparisons are not all that relevant since... they are niches. If you have a specific job fo…

Debugging in code vs in VS is a totally different environment. VS had a fat better debug experience

There's not much to debug in VS if you write something that doesn't run on Windows.

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#255

Post by saghm »

int_19h wrote: post #251
saghm wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IDE specifically, or editor in general? The former wouldn't really surprise me since most of the editors I see friends and coworkers using aren't really IDEs per se; I mostly see people using VS Code, Vim, Sublime, and maybe emacs occasionally. The only IDEs people I know ever talk about using besides VS are Jetbrains products and I guess Xcode for iOS dev.

VS Code has integrated builds, testing, and debugging. I would argue that, by any sensible definition of IDE, it's an IDE.

I think it's possible to customize it to be an IDE in some cases, but at least for some languages, it's not one out of the box. I have no idea how most people use it, but it doesn't seem obvious to me that all or most users would necessarily use it as and consider it an IDE.

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#256

Post by oneplane »

DeathArrow wrote: post #199
oneplane wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt that. Unless you specifically target win32 and its non-core replacements (like classic full-fat C#) there is nothing that VS has to offer that outdoes other programs. For the non-web world specifically, the part that was Windows Server and Windows Desktop is simply a dead end outside of niches. And within the niches, comparisons are not all that relevant since... they are niches. If you have a specific job fo…

I do not think Windows desktop is a niche. It doesn't have the same percent of development it used to, but in absolute numbers it didn't decline. Many people are using the Windows desktop and many old and new software is being developed. Speaking of which, I feel the need to rant a bit: developing for Windows using QT is much more nicer than with any MS framework. MFC is a nightmare. Windows Forms was deprecated in f…

That's probably why people 'like' certain tools, they are still working inside that context or environment and then there are no other tools that do that thing well.

But that doesn't make the tool a great tool in absolute terms. That is also the problem with this type of comparison, some people come up with arguments that are tangential at best. If you use literally anything else (anything that is not winapi, win32, forms, mfc, wpf or some legacy xaml) then Visual Studio is just a limited experience at best, and a steaming pile of crap in most cases.

This goes for more software obviously, if you want to write C# but try to do that in Xcode, you're going to have a bad time. Same for when you need to write a Kubernetes controller in Go, that's going to suck really badly in VS or XC.

There are a few remaining systems that really benefit from unmanaged languages and strong OS-integrated tooling (the niches that were mentioned), but the mass development practises going on today are basically non-desktop and specifically non-windows-desktop. This means that a tool that was designed to be specifically for windows-desktop (or macOS-desktop for that matter) is unlikely to be optimised for anything else.

Windows Desktop as-is might not be a niche, but building local native desktop applications is. Even if you target Windows Desktop right now for a new application, it's likely that it's going to be some crappy CEF/Electron thing. And yes, that's crappy, but it also means you get to use much more of the knowledge/mindshare/community that is out there which is bigger than all desktops combined.

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#257

Post by sedatk »

pritambaral wrote: post #163
sedatk wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's bad about not wanting to lose developer love?

That's certainly one way to frame it; though, I think, a very narrow view. They knew they were going to lose some 'developer love' when they originally made the decision. They went ahead anyway. So, your framing isn't adequate. What made them walk back is when they realised _how much_ they'd lose. Which happened only because lots of people were outraged and vocally spoke against it. Far more than the number of people…

> What made them walk back is when they realised _how much_ they'd lose.

What's wrong with this arithmetic? Don't independent FOSS organizations have similar metrics when deciding on things? They want to progress while causing the least amount of grievance to the community, and when it exceeds expectations, they walk back?

For example, I hate Firefox's new tab UI; I think it's terrible, and one of the reasons I stopped using it. But, apparently I'm in the minority, so Mozilla Foundation is okay losing my love. Had the backlash exceeded Mozilla's expectations, wouldn't they have walked back? What's extra sinister about what Microsoft's doing here (besides other valid points of criticism)?

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#258

Post by pritambaral »

sedatk wrote: post #257
pritambaral wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's certainly one way to frame it; though, I think, a very narrow view. They knew they were going to lose some 'developer love' when they originally made the decision. They went ahead anyway. So, your framing isn't adequate. What made them walk back is when they realised _how much_ they'd lose. Which happened only because lots of people were outraged and vocally spoke against it. Far more than the number of people…

> What made them walk back is when they realised _how much_ they'd lose. What's wrong with this arithmetic? Don't independent FOSS organizations have similar metrics when deciding on things? They want to progress while causing the least amount of grievance to the community, and when it exceeds expectations, they walk back? For example, I hate Firefox's new tab UI; I think it's terrible, and one of the reasons I stopp…

> What's wrong with this arithmetic? Don't independent FOSS organizations have similar metrics when deciding on things?

Math is never the problem; it's what you use it for.

> They want to progress while causing the least amount of grievance to the community ...

Except that's not what's happening here at all. Cannibalising a promised, existing OSS feature in favour of one's proprietary tool is not "progress". What caused them to back off wasn't a desire to minimise "grievance to the community", but harm to their self-image.

I'm not going to deign your sidetrack about another, actually Open Source product, making UX decisions, with a reply in connection to this charade of OSS.

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#259

Post by JelteF »

pritambaral wrote: post #248
JelteF wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

tl;dr you can put commit hashes in the place where the parent comment put tags, and your exact use case actually has a dedicated link on the PR page. The PR interface actually exposes this for force-pushes, but the UI discovery for this is horrible. It turns out that the "force-pushed" part in the little message in the github UI is actually a link. This link points to the diff between the old and the new HEAD of the…

I have been told this multiple times, and I've tried this too. Maybe it works for public repos, but it doesn't work for private repos.

Pressing the "force-pushed" link works fine for me on private repos too. It could be that they fixed this recently, I only found out about this feature ~a month ago. If it still does not work on private repos for you, maybe try reaching out for support. It could be that there's some bug you're hitting.

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#260

Post by Volrath89 »

nodejs_rulez_1 wrote: post #89
moogly wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For many workloads (at least .NET), JetBrains Rider. For C/C++ on Windows, well, you have VS Code and also JetBrains CLion, but IMO CLion is surprisingly rougher than Rider, even though it's older. You can get stuff done though.

Rider is a non-starter - doesn't even have a community edition.

I happily pay for rider license every year. When you make so much money as a dev, investing in the tool you use every single day makes a lot of financial sense. Even if it makes you 1 or 2% more productive than VS it pays for itself (in my experience the speed boost alone is so worth it)
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