Earlier quoted context omitted.
Rational? Maybe. Ethical? No. Legitimate? Hell no.
Fun fact, the CIA had/has a rule not to impersonate priests etc, journalist or personnel of NGO's in undercover missions (because they have a hard life in some country's already). But then there is that excellent movie Spy Game....
NYT journalist hacked with Pegasus after reporting on previous hacking attempts
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Re: NYT journalist hacked with Pegasus after reporting on previous hacking attempts
#112It would seem to be the rational thing for NSO to hack a journalist who is writing on them, so that they better prepare for what’s coming. As for all the countries that buy and use NSO, to target and kill journalists, they are all close all allies of the US and Israel. And the US and England were also spying on the journalist Julian Assange, and have kept him in prison and tortured him for over a decade. Ben Hubbard…
When you are doing the information from the inside thing, you do need to get your players in line.
England?
I'm English ... and Welsh, Cornish, Scottish and tangentially Irish, not to mention German (check my username).
The country is called Britain, the Great thing is only to distinguish from the other Britain - Brittany (part of France). You might as well call everyone from the USA as Texans.
Julian Assange spent rather a long time here: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4992504,-0.1614713,3a,75y,...
He was not tortured in the embassy - he was a guest who gradually outstayed his welcome. He was always treated well. As you can see Harrods is just to the right. This is not the roughest place to be a prisoner in Christendom.
Whilst he was in there, there were always several Police stationed nearby. They stood in doorways and kept watch. Probably a boring job but nice and simple. The whole thing basically costed the UK tax payer a fair old wodge and obviously Ecuador too.
I know that area and what goes on because I run internets for some flats nearby.
Re: NYT journalist hacked with Pegasus after reporting on previous hacking attempts
#113It would seem to be the rational thing for NSO to hack a journalist who is writing on them, so that they better prepare for what’s coming. As for all the countries that buy and use NSO, to target and kill journalists, they are all close all allies of the US and Israel. And the US and England were also spying on the journalist Julian Assange, and have kept him in prison and tortured him for over a decade. Ben Hubbard…
> the US and England were also spying on the journalist Julian Assange, and have kept him in prison and tortured him for over a decade. Ben Hubbard luckily just got hacked. As you probably know, these assertions are a big stretch for many people. Not everyone considers Assange a journalist. He was living in an embassy for most of those years, so while he was confined, it's not a prison and not torture. Hubbard isn't…
This was in the news just last month: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/soldiers-burst-in-the-bac...
> A Belfast-born writer who has been a consistent critic of IRA violence has revealed how the British Army subjected him to electric shock torture outside his family home in the early years of the Northern Ireland conflict.
> Journalist turned novelist Malachi O’Doherty describes in a new memoir how soldiers first threatened to shoot him, then dragged him through a hedge, kicked him and eventually resorted to inflicting electric shocks to try to extract information about the local IRA.
Re: NYT journalist hacked with Pegasus after reporting on previous hacking attempts
#114Earlier quoted context omitted.
The US government is also one of the largest customers of ICBM rockets too. And you would find that it is not an unregulated field at all. I don’t know about regulations in the field. All I know is that “US gov buys a lot of X, therefore it X is not regulated” is not a convincing argument.
The government’s ability to prevent software distribution is limited significantly by the first amendment. Selling “a tool for hacking” is fine, selling “a tool for committing crime” would be illegal, but that distinction just comes down to picking the right marketing copy. The government can however restrict the import and export of software quite broadly. This is not legal advice, obviously.
An interesting point. Given the vendor and customers for NSO's products, Federal law (in the US) would apply, rather than state law.
That said, an interesting parallel would be possession of burglary tools[0], which is a crime in many places in the US. However, given that "burglary tools" are generally just tools (e.g., bolt cutters), intent or mens rea[2] becomes important.
Presumably, a similar argument could be made about tools like nmap, nc, ettercap, metasploit, etc., since they can be used for legitimate purposes, even though they're also used for site intrusions/compromises.
NSO's tools, presumably, are mostly used for the latter rather than the former. I'm guessing (IANAL) that's one of the rationales used to restrict sales/exports.
Is that a convincing argument to criminalize activity and saddle it with strict liability[1]? I'm not so sure, but I'm also not a DOJ lawyer.
All that said, I don't think it's all just "marketing copy." As with most things, context and nuance matter. I make no judgement WRT the appropriateness of such restrictions, as I'm not in possession of all the facts.
Even so, while I tend toward the free flow of information, there is something to the idea that if you're caught at the back door of a jewelry store late at night with bolt cutters, that implies mens rea much more than having bolt cutters in the toolbox in your garage. YMMV.
[0] https://codes.findlaw.com/ny/penal-law/pen-sect-140-35.html
[1] https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/strict_liability
[2] https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/mens_rea
Edit: Fixed typo.
Re: NYT journalist hacked with Pegasus after reporting on previous hacking attempts
#115It would seem to be the rational thing for NSO to hack a journalist who is writing on them, so that they better prepare for what’s coming. As for all the countries that buy and use NSO, to target and kill journalists, they are all close all allies of the US and Israel. And the US and England were also spying on the journalist Julian Assange, and have kept him in prison and tortured him for over a decade. Ben Hubbard…
"And the US and England" When you are doing the information from the inside thing, you do need to get your players in line. England? I'm English ... and Welsh, Cornish, Scottish and tangentially Irish, not to mention German (check my username). The country is called Britain, the Great thing is only to distinguish from the other Britain - Brittany (part of France). You might as well call everyone from the USA as Texan…
Sorry, but this is absolutely nonsensical to me, how can you be all these nationalities? Were you born on the most insane round trip flight ever or what?
Edit: And sorry, as a Scot (One actually born there); 'the country' is not called 'Great Britain'. As a nationality we group identify as both $member-country and also British/members of the United Kingdom. The UK itself, is made up of four separate countries, Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland. Great Britain is simply our name for 'the big island (and all the little ones) excluding ireland', the UK is the big island + NI. Holy cow where did you learn such nonsense? :/
Re: NYT journalist hacked with Pegasus after reporting on previous hacking attempts
#116So how do we protect our privacy from the advance of technology? It doesn't seem possible. Just going after NSO is useless.
Like we do with anything else:
These are crimes, but we are stuck in the mindset of the nascent Internet, when it was a growing experiment, a subculture in our society, harmless, and we wanted to nurture it and give it maximum freedom.
Those days are long gone. The Internet is completely integral to our society, like a major city (an extraordinarily large one) - in fact, anything not integrated into the Internet is on the fringe, like a business without a website. The idea of a harmless Internet has been antiquated for a long time; it is a serious place of serious money, serious criminals, and serious political actors.
Yet we still don't have serious law or law enforcement, not as an oppressive force but in the tradition of free, open societies. It would be like New York or Tokyo without law or law enforcement. We should create in the federal government (not state governments, given the Internet's borderless nature) a major domestic law enforcement agency, on the scale of the FBI, to protect people and enforce laws; I suspect we need a major addition to or revision of our legal code to go with it. That is how we deal with crime in other parts of society; the Internet is no different. We need divisions dealing with theft, fraud, destruction or property, invasions (hacking), etc. It's long past time to stop applying the antiquated notions to the current reality. Why do you accept this Wild West chaos; it no long fuels creativity and growth, it greatly hampers it.
Re: NYT journalist hacked with Pegasus after reporting on previous hacking attempts
#117On the other hand, perhaps the hardware/OS designs of iOS and Android devices are fundamentally flawed, when viewed from a security-first perspective.
But if you use devices with hardware kill switches and the most secure OS possible (storing nothing on device, perhaps it's a gateway to another security hardened machine).
Secure computing is possible, but it takes a lot of time, effort and dedication.
If you're just using off the shelf hardware and software you're going to have a bad time.
One thing that seems to link these Pegasus stories is that none of these targeted individuals are practising seemingly decent security ops, being hacked over WhatsApp or iMessage seems fairly trivial and hopefully now they would reconsider their threat model.
Re: NYT journalist hacked with Pegasus after reporting on previous hacking attempts
#118It would seem to be the rational thing for NSO to hack a journalist who is writing on them, so that they better prepare for what’s coming. As for all the countries that buy and use NSO, to target and kill journalists, they are all close all allies of the US and Israel. And the US and England were also spying on the journalist Julian Assange, and have kept him in prison and tortured him for over a decade. Ben Hubbard…
Re: NYT journalist hacked with Pegasus after reporting on previous hacking attempts
#119Earlier quoted context omitted.
It depends on what your threat model is. If its individuals, local law enforcement, or even national law enforcement (context dependent) you are trying to hide from, you can obtain phones with cash and make it very difficult to link them to you (use a sim card bought with cash and never give out that number, use a VOIP service for your primary number, use an OS that doesn't send back much telemetry, turn off location…
Any phone's location and call history will effectively identify it. Location can be determine with sufficient accuracy for this purpose from cell-tower connections. More so as 5G, with its greater tower density and shorter range, is rolled out. (An actual 5G threat you can get behind.)
If you add a VPN to the stack, the VOIP service doesn't know your IP (though I wonder if a VOIP service would work well through a VPN, due to added latency).
Re: NYT journalist hacked with Pegasus after reporting on previous hacking attempts
#120Earlier quoted context omitted.
Rational? Maybe. Ethical? No. Legitimate? Hell no.
Fun fact, the CIA had/has a rule not to impersonate priests etc, journalist or personnel of NGO's in undercover missions (because they have a hard life in some country's already). But then there is that excellent movie Spy Game....
My favorite is the US AID CIA spy who goes into Afghanistan in the 1980s that is profiled in Charlie Wilson's war. Or the fake vaccination program they conducted with "humanitarian" NGOs and charities:
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-cia-fake-vacc...
My favorite CIA journalists are the ones who worked for CBS and other publications and were involved in promoting Modern Art around the world with NGOs like MoMA, the Rockefeller and Ford Foundations:
https://news.artnet.com/art-world/artcurious-cia-art-excerpt...
https://daily.jstor.org/was-modern-art-really-a-cia-psy-op/
https://www.bbc.com/culture/article/20161004-was-modern-art-...
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/modern-art-was-cia-...
https://www.amazon.com/Cultural-Cold-War-World-Letters/dp/15...
https://www.amazon.com/ArtCurious-Unexpected-Slightly-Strang...
There is a humorous scene in Men In Black where they refer to Andy Warhol as a CIA spy.