My paranoid takeaway from this: you need to create big drama every time Microsoft does something like this. This won't be sustainable in the long run.
.NET Hot Reload Support via CLI
61–70 of 267 posts
Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI
#62Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Why say you love open-source if you keep the juicy bits of Visual Studio Code closed-source? More like you love open-source... for making money. I really dislike this mindset. Sure, it's disappointing that some pieces of VSCode aren't open-sourced, but man, they open-sourced an entire IDE and plugin ecosystem. That's such a fantastic contribution to the open source community, and yet I see comments like yours that…
They didn't make VSCode altruistically, they did it to kill a raft of competing text editors that were on the rise. Atom, Sublime Text, etc etc. I think you call it commoditize your complements.
well with the purchase of github they can basically kill atom? and sublime text is/was niche. I have it, but it was still more or less a niche editor.
Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI
#63I just wrote a comment on the other post about this. I wonder how this decision was made _behind the scenes_. Either some negotiation happened and the Visual Studio team got some concessions (smaller target?) or it was mandated from the top. Both alternatives do not bode well for the VS team.
The Verge has an article about this.[0]
>The Verge understands that the decision to remove the functionality from .NET 6 was made by Julia Liuson, the head of Microsoft’s developer division. Sources describe the move as a business-led decision, and it’s clear the company thought it would fly under the radar and not generate a backlash. Engineers at Microsoft that have worked on .NET for years with the open source community feel betrayed and fear the decision will have lasting effects on Microsoft’s open source efforts.
[0] https://www.theverge.com/2021/10/22/22740701/microsoft-dotne...
Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI
#64Follow-up blog post from .NET Director: https://devblogs.microsoft.com/dotnet/net-hot-reload-support...
Ok, we've changed to that from https://github.com/dotnet/sdk/pull/22262 since it (presumably) has more background. Thanks!
Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI
#65Earlier quoted context omitted.
I mean at this point I have truly no idea what I'm talking about. But I would always bet on Azure against Visual Studio in a fight. The earning potential for Azure is simply far, far higher than for Visual Studio. AWS has shown that the cloud is a recipe for printing money, and I trust Microsoft to follow the money.
Yes. And IMHO Azure wins. But there are managers, goals and compromises. IMHO this was a compromise. The Azure division is interested in a universal available runtime. The tooling group provides a free editor but had goals of earning VS licenses. I can only guess but I think Big Scott, lesser Scott and Julia will have a meeting soon. The .NET community is at a boiling point and they should really avoid a community wh…
> The .NET community is at a boiling point and they should really avoid a community which takes dev productivity in their own hands. Because that is the garantueed end of visual studio.
sounds like .NET is almost the kind of thing I'd use then, because in a world without Visual Studio, I might not be punished for choosing to use .NET but not VS
Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI
#66I just wrote a comment on the other post about this. I wonder how this decision was made _behind the scenes_. Either some negotiation happened and the Visual Studio team got some concessions (smaller target?) or it was mandated from the top. Both alternatives do not bode well for the VS team.
The Verge has an article about this.[0] >The Verge understands that the decision to remove the functionality from .NET 6 was made by Julia Liuson, the head of Microsoft’s developer division. Sources describe the move as a business-led decision, and it’s clear the company thought it would fly under the radar and not generate a backlash. Engineers at Microsoft that have worked on .NET for years with the open source com…
This is the kind of boneheaded, "my division above all" move that should see someone removed off any product decisions whatsoever.
Reminds me of the people at Android that keep pushing big carrier SMS group chat protocols, where everyone can tell from miles afar they are just a blind caterpillar sensing their way along some local optimum gradient descent in whatever mismatched incentive hell their big corp job has landed them.
Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI
#67This is good, but given the amount of terrible decisions in the last few weeks from Microsoft I've lost all trust in them. This will pass, and they'll sneakily do something else. It's clear from the reaction of the well known alt.net people that this problem is strategic, and coming from above. Nothing in this move signifies a change in that strategy.
as i mentioned elsewhere in the discussion of this post, the chairman or w/e left their position after the debaucle
That resignation wasn’t about hot reload - it was about merging a PR over objections by maintainers.
Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI
#68Earlier quoted context omitted.
Encouraging? Microsoft demonstrated here that the move wasn't because of quality or that the change was unable to be in the OSS version, they demonstrated that they only act a certain way because of the backlash. If they would have stand their ground, they would have given the image that this change didn't live up to their wanted quality, instead this demonstrated that they are just giving up to peer-pressure because…
If someone reverts a bad decision, then that's objectively a good thing, regardless of the reasons.
They learned that they had the heat up too high and the frog noticed the water bubbling. So they lowered the heat.
Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI
#69This is reductive, but I am going to repeat the idea that you should not be trusting Microsoft in the first place.
Their GitHub acquisition, VSCode, and CodeSpaces are clearly a moat-building towards making GitHub yet another version of Office 365 where you have to pay $$$ for developer tools. GitHub's workflow already bears little resemblance to a "real" Git workflow, and in 7-10 more years I predict that they will try to marginalize it until you can't actually make commits if you're not using the web UI.
Everything Microsoft-related should be considered closed-source and avoided if you have interest in Open Source as more than just a license. The management at Microsoft has way too many non-technical people focused on "user engagement" and "mindshare" for them to think in terms of OSS principles. They are not evil – they just don't "get" it. So I would strongly suggest avoiding any developer-focused products from Microsoft for the next 10 years if cross-platform parity or Open Source are high on your list of values.
If not, that's fine too. I advise buying and using a Windows laptop for a first-class Microsoft Developer Experience.
Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI
#70This kind of stains .NET as a whole moving forward. I now qualify .net and C# as a non-starter. Just like I would Oracle for my database needs.
Is it fast, great, nice to use? Maybe -- but I won't ever use it because it's riddled with licenses and other bullshit I really don't care about.
I'll continue to use truly open source and free tools like Postgres and Elixir.