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.NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

devblogs.microsoft.com

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Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#41

Post by fabian2k »

oaiey wrote: post #39
fabian2k wrote: post #25

This feels more like an internal turf war inside Microsoft. The general open source strategy with .NET Core and VS Code has been running long enough that I don't think it's just a smoke screen. But there's probably plenty of different interests inside Microsoft that are at least partially in conflict. The Azure side probably doesn't care about selling Visual Studio, but they care about developer mindshare and reputat…

There are people on record that it was the Azure division head Scott Guthrie who gave permission to open source ASP.NET Core (which at the time was part of Azure). Later the asp.net team merged with the .net team and brought the open sourcing with them. VS has no place anymore. The velocity and mindshare is with VS Code. VS with its visual designers had its place .. but desktop is dead and Xamarin competes with frame…

I mean at this point I have truly no idea what I'm talking about. But I would always bet on Azure against Visual Studio in a fight. The earning potential for Azure is simply far, far higher than for Visual Studio. AWS has shown that the cloud is a recipe for printing money, and I trust Microsoft to follow the money.

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#42

Post by Etheryte »

wolpoli wrote: post #23
Etheryte wrote: post #10

As a small aside to the general discussion, I don't think I've ever seen an accepted reviews list that long. To me that in and of itself speaks volumes about how the development team feels about the business politics going on here.

It would be nice if that's the case, but the reviewers are just the general public.

Oh, sorry, my bad in that case. I was not aware that they allowed anyone to approve in their repositories.

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#43

Post by rmsaksida »

dccoolgai wrote: post #34

All this incident has done for me is to confirm how much _less_ evil MS is than 1) It used to be. 2) Almost every other Big Tech operation these days.

I don't know how "evil" they are, but this incident made me drop any plans of ever building a web project with .NET Core. I like C# and would love to find an excuse to use it, but I'm not relying on a framework that MS will intentionally cripple because of corporate interests.

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#45

Post by tester756 »

blibble wrote: post #36
ethbr0 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At this point, VS needs to be put under VSC management. You saw the same crap with Office vs everything new.

yep, modern Visual Studio is a terrible experience end-to-end it takes at least 3 minutes to start, the UI designer takes 30+ seconds to appear, and starting your process for debugging takes 10+ seconds every single autocomplete takes a few seconds to appear even opening a 100 line .c file takes 10+ seconds, and they KNOW its bad because it pops up a dialog with a progress bar! this is all on a azure "cloud" instance…

I'm using VS almost everyday, sometimes even 2 or 3 instances at the time and it does not reflect my experience, but the difference is

>even opening a 100 line .c

that I'm using it for C#.

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#46

Post by creato »

oaiey wrote: post #39
fabian2k wrote: post #25

This feels more like an internal turf war inside Microsoft. The general open source strategy with .NET Core and VS Code has been running long enough that I don't think it's just a smoke screen. But there's probably plenty of different interests inside Microsoft that are at least partially in conflict. The Azure side probably doesn't care about selling Visual Studio, but they care about developer mindshare and reputat…

There are people on record that it was the Azure division head Scott Guthrie who gave permission to open source ASP.NET Core (which at the time was part of Azure). Later the asp.net team merged with the .net team and brought the open sourcing with them. VS has no place anymore. The velocity and mindshare is with VS Code. VS with its visual designers had its place .. but desktop is dead and Xamarin competes with frame…

Has anything ever actually replaced VS?

I've only ever used VS for hobby/side projects, and even 10 years ago it was leaps and bounds better than what I have to use for my professional day to day work now (code completion, debugger are the two things that I miss basically every day).

The tools that I use now have these features, but they're such a joke in comparison. The code completion has no notion of "code", it's just looking for similar words.

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#47

Post by oaiey »

fabian2k wrote: post #41
oaiey wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are people on record that it was the Azure division head Scott Guthrie who gave permission to open source ASP.NET Core (which at the time was part of Azure). Later the asp.net team merged with the .net team and brought the open sourcing with them. VS has no place anymore. The velocity and mindshare is with VS Code. VS with its visual designers had its place .. but desktop is dead and Xamarin competes with frame…

I mean at this point I have truly no idea what I'm talking about. But I would always bet on Azure against Visual Studio in a fight. The earning potential for Azure is simply far, far higher than for Visual Studio. AWS has shown that the cloud is a recipe for printing money, and I trust Microsoft to follow the money.

Yes. And IMHO Azure wins. But there are managers, goals and compromises. IMHO this was a compromise. The Azure division is interested in a universal available runtime. The tooling group provides a free editor but had goals of earning VS licenses.

I can only guess but I think Big Scott, lesser Scott and Julia will have a meeting soon. The .NET community is at a boiling point and they should really avoid a community which takes dev productivity in their own hands. Because that is the garantueed end of visual studio.

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#48

Post by moogly »

creato wrote: post #46
oaiey wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are people on record that it was the Azure division head Scott Guthrie who gave permission to open source ASP.NET Core (which at the time was part of Azure). Later the asp.net team merged with the .net team and brought the open sourcing with them. VS has no place anymore. The velocity and mindshare is with VS Code. VS with its visual designers had its place .. but desktop is dead and Xamarin competes with frame…

Has anything ever actually replaced VS? I've only ever used VS for hobby/side projects, and even 10 years ago it was leaps and bounds better than what I have to use for my professional day to day work now (code completion, debugger are the two things that I miss basically every day). The tools that I use now have these features, but they're such a joke in comparison. The code completion has no notion of "code", it's…

For many workloads (at least .NET), JetBrains Rider.

For C/C++ on Windows, well, you have VS Code and also JetBrains CLion, but IMO CLion is surprisingly rougher than Rider, even though it's older. You can get stuff done though.

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#49

Post by [deleted] »

fabian2k wrote: post #25

This feels more like an internal turf war inside Microsoft. The general open source strategy with .NET Core and VS Code has been running long enough that I don't think it's just a smoke screen. But there's probably plenty of different interests inside Microsoft that are at least partially in conflict. The Azure side probably doesn't care about selling Visual Studio, but they care about developer mindshare and reputat…

[deleted]

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#50

Post by sillysaurusx »

capableweb wrote: post #14
sbelskie wrote: post #4

Pretty encouraging sign given the drama the last few days. In addition to the community response, it’s pretty clear that a number of dotnet and MSFT team members went to bat hard for this. Really happy to see that they won out.

Encouraging? Microsoft demonstrated here that the move wasn't because of quality or that the change was unable to be in the OSS version, they demonstrated that they only act a certain way because of the backlash. If they would have stand their ground, they would have given the image that this change didn't live up to their wanted quality, instead this demonstrated that they are just giving up to peer-pressure because…

If someone reverts a bad decision, then that's objectively a good thing, regardless of the reasons.
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