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.NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

devblogs.microsoft.com

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Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#51

Post by oaiey »

creato wrote: post #46
oaiey wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are people on record that it was the Azure division head Scott Guthrie who gave permission to open source ASP.NET Core (which at the time was part of Azure). Later the asp.net team merged with the .net team and brought the open sourcing with them. VS has no place anymore. The velocity and mindshare is with VS Code. VS with its visual designers had its place .. but desktop is dead and Xamarin competes with frame…

Has anything ever actually replaced VS? I've only ever used VS for hobby/side projects, and even 10 years ago it was leaps and bounds better than what I have to use for my professional day to day work now (code completion, debugger are the two things that I miss basically every day). The tools that I use now have these features, but they're such a joke in comparison. The code completion has no notion of "code", it's…

VS Code and language servers have leveled the game a lot. Regular Editing is pretty much on par. Debugging and diagnostic they are still strong.

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#52

Post by mrec »

blibble wrote: post #36
ethbr0 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At this point, VS needs to be put under VSC management. You saw the same crap with Office vs everything new.

yep, modern Visual Studio is a terrible experience end-to-end it takes at least 3 minutes to start, the UI designer takes 30+ seconds to appear, and starting your process for debugging takes 10+ seconds every single autocomplete takes a few seconds to appear even opening a 100 line .c file takes 10+ seconds, and they KNOW its bad because it pops up a dialog with a progress bar! this is all on a azure "cloud" instance…

I haven't used VS in years, but the only time I've seen Windows crash to BIOS in the last two decades was during a VS install.

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#53

Post by johnfn »

usui wrote: post #8

A hot-button issue gets corrected now, but then they continue to make subtler moves. Why say you love open-source if you keep the juicy bits of Visual Studio Code closed-source? More like you love open-source... for making money. Microsoft is a big company with changing microcultures all the time. They alone as a whole should not take credit for their open-source endeavors. In general, big contributor names should be…

> Why say you love open-source if you keep the juicy bits of Visual Studio Code closed-source? More like you love open-source... for making money.

I really dislike this mindset. Sure, it's disappointing that some pieces of VSCode aren't open-sourced, but man, they open-sourced an entire IDE and plugin ecosystem. That's such a fantastic contribution to the open source community, and yet I see comments like yours that treat it as if it's negligible and somehow want even more? Why is it that, say, Intellij never has to deal with this level of scrutiny? The work MS did even includes a bunch work on existing plugins they don't even own - I know this because my plugin was one which they got their engineers to do a couple months of volunteer work on.

If MS wants to retain a few small pieces of tech to pay the engineers that make a fantastic IDE and ecosystem free and open source for everyone, so be it. You say "making money" as if it's some great evil - how do you think all those open source engineers get paid?

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#54

Post by jimmaswell »

creato wrote: post #46
oaiey wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are people on record that it was the Azure division head Scott Guthrie who gave permission to open source ASP.NET Core (which at the time was part of Azure). Later the asp.net team merged with the .net team and brought the open sourcing with them. VS has no place anymore. The velocity and mindshare is with VS Code. VS with its visual designers had its place .. but desktop is dead and Xamarin competes with frame…

Has anything ever actually replaced VS? I've only ever used VS for hobby/side projects, and even 10 years ago it was leaps and bounds better than what I have to use for my professional day to day work now (code completion, debugger are the two things that I miss basically every day). The tools that I use now have these features, but they're such a joke in comparison. The code completion has no notion of "code", it's…

I use VS and VS Code for different things today. VS is much better for something it's made for like a C# project with a solution/projects, and VS code is great as something that works with an existing file structure like an old Java project or a folder full of random Python scripts.

VS Code still has good code completion/etc but it doesn't seem able to match the instant responsiveness of VS.

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#56

Post by q-big »

bradfitz wrote: post #33
S04dKHzrKT wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't remember how old this is org chart graphic is, but it seems like it still applies. https://i.imgur.com/qZ0RDYw.jpg

Original source: https://bonkersworld.net/organizational-charts

Update for Apple: https://bonkersworld.net/organizational-charts-update

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#57

Post by sbelskie »

capableweb wrote: post #14
sbelskie wrote: post #4

Pretty encouraging sign given the drama the last few days. In addition to the community response, it’s pretty clear that a number of dotnet and MSFT team members went to bat hard for this. Really happy to see that they won out.

Encouraging? Microsoft demonstrated here that the move wasn't because of quality or that the change was unable to be in the OSS version, they demonstrated that they only act a certain way because of the backlash. If they would have stand their ground, they would have given the image that this change didn't live up to their wanted quality, instead this demonstrated that they are just giving up to peer-pressure because…

I may have done a bad job articulating what I meant. My main point was that I feel (based on like 2nd and 3rd knowledge so could be totally wrong) that this had as much to do with public pressure as it did with a number of well known (and certainly many not well known) dotnet and Microsoft team members who fought for an OSS feature that they had been developing and promoting for most of this year.

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#58

Post by jay_kyburz »

johnfn wrote: post #53
usui wrote: post #8

A hot-button issue gets corrected now, but then they continue to make subtler moves. Why say you love open-source if you keep the juicy bits of Visual Studio Code closed-source? More like you love open-source... for making money. Microsoft is a big company with changing microcultures all the time. They alone as a whole should not take credit for their open-source endeavors. In general, big contributor names should be…

> Why say you love open-source if you keep the juicy bits of Visual Studio Code closed-source? More like you love open-source... for making money. I really dislike this mindset. Sure, it's disappointing that some pieces of VSCode aren't open-sourced, but man, they open-sourced an entire IDE and plugin ecosystem. That's such a fantastic contribution to the open source community, and yet I see comments like yours that…

They didn't make VSCode altruistically, they did it to kill a raft of competing text editors that were on the rise. Atom, Sublime Text, etc etc.

I think you call it commoditize your complements.

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#59

Post by Zababa »

jay_kyburz wrote: post #58
johnfn wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why say you love open-source if you keep the juicy bits of Visual Studio Code closed-source? More like you love open-source... for making money. I really dislike this mindset. Sure, it's disappointing that some pieces of VSCode aren't open-sourced, but man, they open-sourced an entire IDE and plugin ecosystem. That's such a fantastic contribution to the open source community, and yet I see comments like yours that…

They didn't make VSCode altruistically, they did it to kill a raft of competing text editors that were on the rise. Atom, Sublime Text, etc etc. I think you call it commoditize your complements.

Also as a way to promote Typescript, since VSCode has great Typescript support, which is also something by Microsoft.

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#60

Post by tester756 »

oaiey wrote: post #39
fabian2k wrote: post #25

This feels more like an internal turf war inside Microsoft. The general open source strategy with .NET Core and VS Code has been running long enough that I don't think it's just a smoke screen. But there's probably plenty of different interests inside Microsoft that are at least partially in conflict. The Azure side probably doesn't care about selling Visual Studio, but they care about developer mindshare and reputat…

There are people on record that it was the Azure division head Scott Guthrie who gave permission to open source ASP.NET Core (which at the time was part of Azure). Later the asp.net team merged with the .net team and brought the open sourcing with them. VS has no place anymore. The velocity and mindshare is with VS Code. VS with its visual designers had its place .. but desktop is dead and Xamarin competes with frame…

>VS has no place anymore.

That's exaggeration at best.

VS with extensions like Roslynator make C# development really good.

VS Code is nice, but I always felt like VS had significantly more reliable Intellisense than VS Code (for C#).

but I wish VS (real, not 4Mac) worked on Linux.

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