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Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

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Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. My philosophy is to always cooperate (unless they ask for something super egregious) and show myself as friendly. This immediately reduces the alarms in their heads. I even say things like "sure guys, here are my docs, here are the contents of my backpack, hope you catch the guy you are after" and smile. Very often the mere fact that you are not trouble makes them pay less attention and the whole thing ends real…

This is terrible advice.

It is and it isn't, there are circumstances where the best outcome is to be helpful and compliant, and other circumstances where you'll want to protect yourself from search.

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Hint: some cops are really good in the skill of inflicting pain to people without lasting medical trace to prove it afterwards. Sorry, I don't buy that this happens with any kind of frequency in the 21st century United States, such that a person could reasonably expect this to happen to them. Do you have more than ambiguous innuendo to back up this claim?

85% of the people in Rikers haven’t been convicted of anything.

Rikers is a jail, not a prison. Jails are meant to hold people who have not yet completed their trial. Once you're convicted you get sent to prison.

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#123
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They asked for any evidence beyond "it's like this, trust me" and you answered with "really, it's like this, trust me" . Do you realize that if someone isn't convinced after the first "trust me", they won't be convinced by the second "trust me"?

Sure. A better reply is: "I am here to state an observation and not to prove anything to anyone since it's not a court room. Believe me if you want, I'll not stick around to find out".

Well, have you observed that behavior first-hand? Did someone you know and trust observe it first-hand and tell you about it? Etc. We don't ask you to "prove" anything, but some more information instead of vague hints would be helpful.

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#124
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're absolutely right, and it's insane that people don't realize this. So many people that want police reform in the US think that somehow we can continue to let the police be mostly made up by people with a certain political persuasion and education level, and that we can simply control them with laws and incentives.

> political persuasion and education level Sorry, I'm not following. My understanding is that the job attracts bullies and I see bullies from all political persuasions and all education levels.

The police job attracts most people who do not have a college degree, are white, and lean into conservative/justice-heavy politics. Many of those people are bullies. That doesn't mean anything about people that do not have a college degree, or white people, or conservative/justice-heavy politics, it just means something about the police job and the people who agree to take it. We're looking at probability of (white AND lower college education) given (bully AND police officer), not probability of (bully) given (white AND low college education).

The closer you get down to beat-cop-that-interacts-with-citizens, the less likely you are to find a four-year degree or "conventionally liberal" beliefs. (Not that a college education or liberal beliefs confer any useful predictors about common sense, wisdom, ethical beliefs, or honesty.) This implies that anyone with a four-year degree and conventionally liberal beliefs is going to have a hard time understanding or influencing police officers by using any tactics that work on other liberal college graduates.

I agree with you that there are bullies from all political persuasions and education levels, but a very specific type of aggressive personality self-selects into the police job at a higher rate than in other jobs that require a similar background. Additionally, even if 99% of police officers in the US weren't aggressive and weren't bullies, that still leaves 10,000 "bad cops". It doesn't take many "bad cops" to make people angry and uncomfortable with the police in general.

In case my original message wasn't clear, I'm actually criticizing U.S. supporters of police reform for wanting police work to be perfect and ethical without actually volunteering to become police themselves. These (mostly left-leaners) entrust the enforcement of civil society to a group of people who mostly don't respect or agree with them, which is ineffective and hypocritical.

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is terrible advice.

It is and it isn't, there are circumstances where the best outcome is to be helpful and compliant, and other circumstances where you'll want to protect yourself from search.

Absolutely, if I travel with a company laptop and I am asked to unlock it I'll outright refuse and cite that I can and will be sued by my employer if I unlock it, and will direct the airport security to my employer's legal team.

I don't want to open myself up for litigation so I'll definitely put up a fight in this case.

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#126
post #101

Meanwhile, in the UK: https://www.hcsolicitors.co.uk/news/giving-the-police-your-p... If a judge authorises a notice, under RIPA, you can be served a 2 year sentence for failing to disclose your phone's passcode.

In the US that would be a (search?) warrant which also comes from the judge during a police investigation and authorizes the police to get your phone's passcode under threat of prison time. This particular case is different because the police did not get a warrant and instead just asked the guy to disclose (without a warrant), which he refused to do, then they tried to use that against the guy in court, which is a vi…

Only some states have ruled that the state can force you to reveal your password. Others have ruled that the 5th amendment protects you and your passwords.

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#127
post #52

Sortof off topic question. I've never owned a smart phone but might get one soon assuming I can find a decent one that will run grapheneOS. Is there an app that can be given permission to intercept the unlock code and upon receiving the panic/under duress code, discretely put the phone into a "parental controls" configuration that sandboxes all your data and only presents the storage you want the law enforcement chil…

I think an easier approach is not to do anything incriminating on your phone.

"If you give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest of men, I will find something in them which will hang him."

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#128
> this case turns on one of the most fundamental protections in our constitutional system: an accused person’s ability to exercise his Fifth Amendment rights without having his silence used against him.

A very interesting tidbit I learned here on HN a couple years back — the Supreme Court ruled in 1992 that you have to declare out loud an intent to invoke your Fifth Amendment rights, if you haven’t been formally arrested yet. Literal “silence” may be acceptable after being Mirandized, but not necessarily before.

https://harronlaw.com/blog/miranda-rights-texas/

https://www.oyez.org/cases/2012/12-246

“Question: Does the Fifth Amendment's Self-Incrimination Clause protects a defendant's refusal to answer questions asked by law enforcement before he has been arrested or read his Miranda rights?”

No, by 5-4 vote.

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#129

Formally the police can't demand a lot of stuff. Informally, they'll put you in a room and tell you that they have the legal right to keep you anywhere from 24 to 72 hours in there and they definitely can make you reconsider during that period -- to put it very mildly. Hint: some cops are really good in the skill of inflicting pain to people without lasting medical trace to prove it afterwards. Until there's true acc…

Men can address that.

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#130
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're absolutely right, and it's insane that people don't realize this. So many people that want police reform in the US think that somehow we can continue to let the police be mostly made up by people with a certain political persuasion and education level, and that we can simply control them with laws and incentives.

Of course you can't control them with laws . The prosecutors are their allies, the courts are their enablers, and Qualified Immunity is all but carte blanche to ignore laws.

This is obvious to me, but it seems to be lost on many people who want to change how police work is done. It's like saying that chefs ought to be responsible for punishing each other when they spit in people's food.
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