Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused • Hacker News Board

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#91

Post by ceejayoz » Fri, Oct 22, 2021, 2:02 PM UTC

MerelyMortal wrote: post #44

matheusmoreira wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you can't just clam up halfway through a conversation Why?

I'm not a lawyer, but I've heard that the 5th Amendment is an "all or nothing" thing - that a judge might say you answered all these other questions, so you can't pick and choose which ones you don't want to answer, so now the court is compelling you to answer.

No. The Miranda warning explicitly states:

> If you decide to answer questions now without a lawyer present, you have the right to stop answering at any time.

If the questioning goes from "what's your name, what's your job, where do you live" to "why did you murder so-and-so", you're allowed to invoke the Fifth there, even if you answered the innocuous questions earlier.

At trial, you can't start testifying on your own defense and invoke the Fifth part way through, but you can during police interrogation. https://www.findlaw.com/criminal/criminal-rights/fifth-amend...

"Once the defendant takes the witness stand, this particular Fifth Amendment right is considered waived throughout the trial."

(Witnesses have full Fifth Amendment protections while testifying, oddly enough. The above is specific to a) trial and b) the defendant)

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#92

Post by 35fbe7d3d5b9 » Fri, Oct 22, 2021, 2:03 PM UTC

oogali wrote: post #76

63 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's crazy to me the amount that people who have never dealt with the cops think "I'll just show them x legal code so they can see they don't have the right to do that." Turns out, they don't care. For minor infractions, they'll use whatever intimidation and coercion they want, then make you feel lucky for letting you out because they didn't feel like prosecuting. In most circumstances, the word of the person with th…

A former colleague summarized this as "you can beat the rap, but you can't beat the ride". Meaning, your exit via means of reciting legal code matters in a court room or in front of a prosecutor, but it won't get you out of the ride to the police station -- or in this case: a trip to the coercion back room.

I listened to a legal symposium once that was held by lawyers who specialize in self defense/use of force. Think "I have a concealed weapon and I killed someone in self defense - now what?"

They all agreed that their clients worry far too much about being arrested. Their legal advice was unanimous: you just took someone's life, you are absolutely going to be arrested, nothing you could possibly say will change that. But if you say the wrong thing to the arresting or investigating officer, you are at risk of derailing your legal strategy.

A night or two in jail won't change your life, but what you say to the police absolutely can. So shut the fuck up until your lawyer gets there, and then stay shut up until your lawyer tells you otherwise.

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#93

Post by 8bitbuddhist » Fri, Oct 22, 2021, 2:03 PM UTC

kibwen wrote: post #56

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is messed up. That said, biometric unlock is identification, NOT authorization; if you have secrets on your phone, do not use biometrics. They are a low to medium security convenience. Second, of course, don't keep evidence of crimes on your phone. And final tip, on an iphone, hitting the lock button on the side five times rapidly will disable the biometric unlock until the passcode has been filled in. It also…

On Android, rebooting the phone will disable biometric login until the passcode is re-entered.

You can do the same by pressing and holding the power button on the lock screen to pull up a menu, then press Lockdown. I'm not sure if it's enabled by default, but it is a security option on at least Android 11+.

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#94

Post by jollybean » Fri, Oct 22, 2021, 2:03 PM UTC

"In Valdez, the defendant was charged with kidnapping his ex-girlfriend after arranging a meeting under false pretenses. "

'Valdez' is not going to be arbitrarily charged with kidnapping, he'll have the ex-girlfriend as a primary witness.

If I were innocent and accused of kidnapping someone I'd check with my lawyer and then hand over my phone because it would exonerate me.

I'm inclined with the ruling, but let's be pragmatic here for a moment and recognize whether or not we're seeking actual just outcomes.

I'd imagine they should make getting a court order for such a serious crime very quickly kind of a priority.

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#95

Post by copo233 » Fri, Oct 22, 2021, 2:03 PM UTC

Consultant32452 wrote: post #68

63 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's crazy to me the amount that people who have never dealt with the cops think "I'll just show them x legal code so they can see they don't have the right to do that." Turns out, they don't care. For minor infractions, they'll use whatever intimidation and coercion they want, then make you feel lucky for letting you out because they didn't feel like prosecuting. In most circumstances, the word of the person with th…

[flagged]

That makes even less sense, somehow.

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#96

Post by macintux » Fri, Oct 22, 2021, 2:04 PM UTC

sethammons wrote: post #90

quacked wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're absolutely right, and it's insane that people don't realize this. So many people that want police reform in the US think that somehow we can continue to let the police be mostly made up by people with a certain political persuasion and education level, and that we can simply control them with laws and incentives.

> political persuasion and education level Sorry, I'm not following. My understanding is that the job attracts bullies and I see bullies from all political persuasions and all education levels.

I think the recently-departed administration in the U.S. has done a good job of helping bullies self-select themselves into its party.

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#97

Post by pdimitar » Fri, Oct 22, 2021, 2:05 PM UTC

kspacewalk2 wrote: post #78

pdimitar wrote: post #53

Formally the police can't demand a lot of stuff. Informally, they'll put you in a room and tell you that they have the legal right to keep you anywhere from 24 to 72 hours in there and they definitely can make you reconsider during that period -- to put it very mildly. Hint: some cops are really good in the skill of inflicting pain to people without lasting medical trace to prove it afterwards. Until there's true acc…

>Hint: some cops are really good in the skill of inflicting pain to people without lasting medical trace to prove it afterwards. Sorry, I don't buy that this happens with any kind of frequency in the 21st century United States, such that a person could reasonably expect this to happen to them. Do you have more than ambiguous innuendo to back up this claim?

What you "buy" makes no difference to what happened to people out there. Believe what you will.

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#98

Post by jjk166 » Fri, Oct 22, 2021, 2:06 PM UTC

pdimitar wrote: post #53

Formally the police can't demand a lot of stuff. Informally, they'll put you in a room and tell you that they have the legal right to keep you anywhere from 24 to 72 hours in there and they definitely can make you reconsider during that period -- to put it very mildly. Hint: some cops are really good in the skill of inflicting pain to people without lasting medical trace to prove it afterwards. Until there's true acc…

You don't get justice in a police station, you get justice in a courtroom. The cops may do all sorts of things to you that they're not supposed to, and there's nothing you can do to stop them. But now you have a good chance of getting the whole case, or at least any evidence they obtain as a result of these actions thrown out the window, and potentially stand to gain from a profitable civil suit.

Be compliant, be quiet, be observant, lawyer up.

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#99

Post by fennecfoxen » Fri, Oct 22, 2021, 2:08 PM UTC

quacked wrote: post #66

63 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's crazy to me the amount that people who have never dealt with the cops think "I'll just show them x legal code so they can see they don't have the right to do that." Turns out, they don't care. For minor infractions, they'll use whatever intimidation and coercion they want, then make you feel lucky for letting you out because they didn't feel like prosecuting. In most circumstances, the word of the person with th…

You're absolutely right, and it's insane that people don't realize this. So many people that want police reform in the US think that somehow we can continue to let the police be mostly made up by people with a certain political persuasion and education level, and that we can simply control them with laws and incentives.

Of course you can't control them with laws. The prosecutors are their allies, the courts are their enablers, and Qualified Immunity is all but carte blanche to ignore laws.

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#100

Post by codezero » Fri, Oct 22, 2021, 2:09 PM UTC

kspacewalk2 wrote: post #78

pdimitar wrote: post #53

Formally the police can't demand a lot of stuff. Informally, they'll put you in a room and tell you that they have the legal right to keep you anywhere from 24 to 72 hours in there and they definitely can make you reconsider during that period -- to put it very mildly. Hint: some cops are really good in the skill of inflicting pain to people without lasting medical trace to prove it afterwards. Until there's true acc…

>Hint: some cops are really good in the skill of inflicting pain to people without lasting medical trace to prove it afterwards. Sorry, I don't buy that this happens with any kind of frequency in the 21st century United States, such that a person could reasonably expect this to happen to them. Do you have more than ambiguous innuendo to back up this claim?

85% of the people in Rikers haven’t been convicted of anything.