Call of Duty Adds Kernel Level Driver for Anti-Cheat • Hacker News Board

Re: Call of Duty Adds Kernel Level Driver for Anti-Cheat

#161

Post by CivBase » Thu, Oct 14, 2021, 3:05 AM UTC

I understand the desire for powerful anti-cheat, but this is such an intrusive way go go about it. And it's increasingly pointless since you can't detect cheats which are running on a second PC [0].

Instead, this sounds like a great application for machine learning. Train an algorithm to identify a wide suite of cheats using data passed to the server. It wouldn't work for P2P, but if your competitive matchmaking uses P2P then you have bigger problems.

[0] https://www.tomshardware.com/news/impossible-to-detect-cheat...

Re: Call of Duty Adds Kernel Level Driver for Anti-Cheat

#162

Post by lobocinza » Thu, Oct 14, 2021, 3:09 AM UTC

yissp wrote: post #127

Sohcahtoa82 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> detect the supernatural aim server-side Not possible. Sure, it might be possible to detect a player instantly snapping to the center of an opponent's head and clicking, but cheats could easily make the aim move over the course of several frames, and make the target off of the center of the head by a couple pixels to simulate someone just being really good. I've watched some really good gamers in person. People's ab…

But if a cheater really is subtle enough to be indistinguishable from a highly skilled player, is it really a problem? I mean, I guess it's "unfair" to genuinely skilled players but come on, it's just a game.

It is because losing in a competitive gaming is not fun. That's why those games take care to match you with players that are 'as good' as you.

Re: Call of Duty Adds Kernel Level Driver for Anti-Cheat

#163

Post by xarball » Thu, Oct 14, 2021, 3:11 AM UTC

lemoncookiechip wrote: post #150

While I don't particularly like this sort of anti-cheat, I think we should all be more worried about cloud gaming than anything else. It's been obvious for a while that the big gaming companies have it in mind, and the only reason it isn't as big as it could be, is due to tech limitations FOR NOW. When (not if) cloud gaming truly takes off, and it will, we'll lose any and all control over our games. So long to moddin…

I agree that your point on cloud gaming is probably valid for companies trying to maintain a rigid grip over software piracy when the companies still build things that can be stolen -- But I don't think it's strictly necessary for the development of anti-cheat systems.

In the next version of Windows, we're seeing a rapid acceleration in the amount of hardware/software fingerprinting and secure storage going on in home computing, with the introduction of the TPM 2.0 and UEFI requirements.

I am almost certain that Microsoft is progressing to be able to sell a completely hardware-protected memory address space to game developers, so that they no longer HAVE to worry about cheating. Because if everything from boot onwards is both signed and supports DRM, it's the perfect place to authenticate everything that happens afterwards.

This is interesting in that it will almost certainly lead to an explosion of DRM, DLC, and software sold via subscription models. And while this kind of thing will probably be initially well received by players hoping for decent anti-cheats, it will almost certainly lead to users forfeiting even more control to corporations over the final direction of the software programming.

(This kind of control may eat itself alive given enough time; we'll really only know after humanity has already gone that far!)

Re: Call of Duty Adds Kernel Level Driver for Anti-Cheat

#164

Post by emkoemko » Thu, Oct 14, 2021, 3:11 AM UTC

temporarrry0923 wrote: post #122

nwiswell wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is how we end up with kernel level drivers rather than more measured approaches.

For sure in other games, yeah. Newell is opposed to kernel anti cheats, though, so probably not in CSGO. But other games now look at CSGO and make kernel AC's a selling point (literally Valorant's selling point), so yeah.

yea but anyone who plays competitive you use kernel level anti cheat for CSGO...

Re: Call of Duty Adds Kernel Level Driver for Anti-Cheat

#165

Post by yuuu » Thu, Oct 14, 2021, 3:12 AM UTC

temporarrry0923 wrote: post #116

foresto wrote: post #114

John McDonald did a talk at GDC 2018 about how Valve was starting to integrate deep learning into their server-side cheat detection. IIRC, some of the process was automated, some was player-reported, and some was done through human review. As a gamer averse to both cheating and spyware, I found this very appealing. I wonder how their systems have evolved since then. The original youtube clip (v=ObhK8lUfIlc) has been…

VACnet catches the spinbotters and aimbotters! Actually really good at it too; everyone who did that now just cheats less hard. The biggest problem was: It didn't auto ban, just sent to overwatch (players watch a past game and vote for cheater or not, fully anonymized). This resulted in a massive clog when some guys I knew generated around 10k free steam accounts (with $3.5 of proxies), began queueing a few dozen at…

As if it's hard to detect spinbotters. The problem at high level play has always been and always will be wallhacking/ESP. The fact that you can easily write a separate program that overlays this information, which only needs to read from memory, means that this problem is never going away. Playing any FPS outside of a LAN is a waste of time because of this.

Re: Call of Duty Adds Kernel Level Driver for Anti-Cheat

#166

Post by gjs278 » Thu, Oct 14, 2021, 3:12 AM UTC

22c wrote: post #151

userbinator wrote: post #139

It's a cat-and-mouse game, where the mice basically have infinite time to spend on anti-anti-cheat... and dare I say it, countless young people probably got their head start in learning about computers, programming, reverse-engineering, etc. by playing this "meta-game". I know some people who were otherwise completely uninterested in the typical STEM courses at school, but highly skilled at the sort of low-level know…

I don't doubt any of that but what I don't understand is where these guys are getting all their accounts from. I feel as though if I were making a hack for a game, I'd get numerous accounts banned in the process (which means needing to buy more and more copies of the game). A youngster getting into reverse engineering surely does not have deep enough pockets to spend several hundreds of dollars on buying the game ove…

CS:GO is free

Re: Call of Duty Adds Kernel Level Driver for Anti-Cheat

#167

Post by emkoemko » Thu, Oct 14, 2021, 3:13 AM UTC

mgsk wrote: post #24

q_andrew wrote: post #5

Not to say this isn't a worrying practice, but it's unfortunately industry standard. Almost every mainstream fps game has intrusive software, to the point where you're expected to be thankful that it's not a rootkit (which is not unheard of).

Then there's CS:GO, whose developers refuse to use intrusive practices to counter cheating. And the game is ruined by rampant cheating. (Neither for nor against. Just saying.)

yea but any competitive play is done on kernel level anti cheat on CSGO.

Re: Call of Duty Adds Kernel Level Driver for Anti-Cheat

#168

Post by veb » Thu, Oct 14, 2021, 3:15 AM UTC

lemoncookiechip wrote: post #150

While I don't particularly like this sort of anti-cheat, I think we should all be more worried about cloud gaming than anything else. It's been obvious for a while that the big gaming companies have it in mind, and the only reason it isn't as big as it could be, is due to tech limitations FOR NOW. When (not if) cloud gaming truly takes off, and it will, we'll lose any and all control over our games. So long to moddin…

This is kind of already happening with the Xbox Game Pass Ultimate. So you get hundreds of games to play, but you actually don't own any of them.

I understand you meant it in a different light but I thought I'd give it a mention.

Re: Call of Duty Adds Kernel Level Driver for Anti-Cheat

#169

Post by kcb » Thu, Oct 14, 2021, 3:16 AM UTC

VWWHFSfQ wrote: post #13

It's cheating really that big of a deal? How do they try to stop it now? Do they really need a kernel driver?

Yes. One example, EA recently put their old Battlefield games on sale for a few dollars. Those games at least for the time being are completely ruined and unplayable. I've tried for 3 nights now and every match gets griefed by someone instant killing everyone in sight.

Re: Call of Duty Adds Kernel Level Driver for Anti-Cheat

#170

Post by temporarrry0923 » Thu, Oct 14, 2021, 3:18 AM UTC

emkoemko wrote: post #164

temporarrry0923 wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For sure in other games, yeah. Newell is opposed to kernel anti cheats, though, so probably not in CSGO. But other games now look at CSGO and make kernel AC's a selling point (literally Valorant's selling point), so yeah.

yea but anyone who plays competitive you use kernel level anti cheat for CSGO...

Only with external third parties like Faceit/ESEA. Not normal matchmaking