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Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

reuters.com

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Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#381

Post by [deleted] »

daveguy wrote: post #374
twofornone wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you assume that people critical of the vaccines aren't consuming scientific literature? This source[1] cites the following from a dead link to the cdc website: >Upon entering the cell’s cytoplasm, the mRNA redirects some of the cell’s protein production machinery (of which ribosomes are the workhorse) to begin producing viral spike proteins. The produced spike proteins are then incorporated into and “displayed…

It is normal for your cells to manufacture bits of RNA into proteins. It's what they do all day. There is no hijacking. Cells do this constantly. And massively parallel. If each cell could only translate one rna sequence at a time you wouldn't have made it past zygote. It's normal for Antigen Presenting Cells to present antigens on the surface of their cell membrane. It's what they do all day. So, yes. Every bit of t…

[deleted]

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#382

Post by blitzar »

Dove wrote: post #358
blitzar wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. And heroin addicts, and morbidly obease people.

This line of reasoning goes to a dark place. You can't know what makes sense in someone else's life. A heroin addict self-medicating unbearable pain is, to me, a tragic figure deserving help. A morbidly obese person may be suffering from an undiagnosed underlying condition that makes diet and exercise impossible. A smoker may need the stress release. Should we refuse to treat any injury sustained by the Wright brothe…

I should clarify that I live in the free world, where healthcare is a right and broadly speaking provided by society. Additional helathcare is of course available on a pay basis. However, to clarify, my comment was in regard to this system.

> Should we refuse to treat any injury sustained by ...

You break it you buy it. Should the state and society in general be expected to shoulder the burdeon for people who chose to put themselves in danger, should 10 people be sent into danger to save the sailor who makes the choice to take on a hurricane?

Who do we save if we can only save 1 person, the heroin addict with a fatal condition we can probably save or the child that would be a flip of a coin?

> My conviction is to love and help them no matter what.

What of the children of the helicopter crew flying into the hurricane to save the lone sailor? No love and help for them? Or the person who doesnt get a bed because it is take up by others?

> I would find someone else trying to exert this degree of control over my life - requiring me to comply with their particular take on what risks were worth it - suffocating and unbearable?

Your choices are other peoples consequences. As a functioning member of society, philosophically you comply with these things on a constant basis, and no doubt demand it of others. It is not a matter of principle, it is simply a question of where the line is. If you have ever complained about anything you have exerted your control over someone elses life.

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#383

Post by twofornone »

daveguy wrote: post #371
twofornone wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you assume that people critical of the vaccines aren't consuming scientific literature? This source[1] cites the following from a dead link to the cdc website: >Upon entering the cell’s cytoplasm, the mRNA redirects some of the cell’s protein production machinery (of which ribosomes are the workhorse) to begin producing viral spike proteins. The produced spike proteins are then incorporated into and “displayed…

You apparently didn't understand what an APC is. APC is Antigen Presenting Cell. The entire purpose of that cell is to present bits of foreign protein to the rest of your immune system. It is full of foreign bits of protein because that is what it does . It is no more going to be hurt by presenting antigens than your neurons are hurt delivering electrical signals from sensory perceptions. If you are going to cite lit…

The nature article I linked is discussing infected/vaccine recruited cells in general. And as far as I know, these mRNA vaccines are not just recruiting APCs, which aren't mentioned even once in the paper.

If you are going to criticize other people's sources, at least read them first.

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#384

Post by labawi »

daveguy wrote: post #364
raxxorrax wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Technically it is nothing else than hijacking and it will lead to the cells death because it produces the foreign protein as instructed until it is killed by your immune system.

This is absolutely not how it works. You have a fundamental misunderstanding of the RNA vaccine mechanism of action.

Before claiming other people don't know what they're talking about, it would be polite sufficiently understand it and refrain from making false claims yourself.

> When a vaccinated cell dies, the debris will contain many spike proteins and protein fragments, which can then be taken up by a type of immune cell called an antigen-presenting cell. [1]

Is it true that host cells need to die for the vaccine to take effect?

I'm not entirely sure and couldn't find good sources to verify or disprove OPs claim, but I recall some claims that the vaccine kills cells.

> it will lead to the cells death because it produces the foreign protein as instructed until it is killed by your immune system.

Different sites have different descriptions, but even [2] mentions:

> The priming of CD8 T cells can induce the formation of cytotoxic T lymphocytes (5b) which are capable of directly killing infected cells.

Which likely means killing cells presenting the vaccine spikes? Most sites mention some form of cytotoxic action or reponse, which I do not understand, but I take it to mean that some cells are killed.

[1] https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/health-family/expl...

[2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7918810/

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#385

Post by labawi »

daveguy wrote: post #371
twofornone wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you assume that people critical of the vaccines aren't consuming scientific literature? This source[1] cites the following from a dead link to the cdc website: >Upon entering the cell’s cytoplasm, the mRNA redirects some of the cell’s protein production machinery (of which ribosomes are the workhorse) to begin producing viral spike proteins. The produced spike proteins are then incorporated into and “displayed…

You apparently didn't understand what an APC is. APC is Antigen Presenting Cell. The entire purpose of that cell is to present bits of foreign protein to the rest of your immune system. It is full of foreign bits of protein because that is what it does . It is no more going to be hurt by presenting antigens than your neurons are hurt delivering electrical signals from sensory perceptions. If you are going to cite lit…

From random article [1]

> Antigen-presenting cells (APC) are cells that can process a protein antigen, break it into peptides, and present it in conjunction with class II MHC molecules on the cell surface where it may interact with appropriate T cell receptors.

APCs do not hoover up random mRNA to translate. They hoover up remnants after a carnage.

The vaccine is jabbed into the muscle, the spikes are (likely) expresses from the muscle cells, most definitely not only APC cells. Even if they were, it is not normal for APCs to be producing the proteins.

[1] https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/veterinary-science-and-...

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#386

Post by coolgeek »

sethammons wrote: post #232
cletus wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem is that the perception of public trust is eroding significantly ... There are many problems. That's not one of them. Here is a better list of problems: 1. People don't understand what "research" means. Hint: watching a Youtube video with no peer-reviewed research is not "research"; 2. People fundamentally don't understand and assess risk correctly. This long predates the anti-vaxxer hyseria. It's why, f…

> We've now administered billions of doses of Covid vaccines. If there were serious problems they'd be evidence by now An economist steps over a $20 bill asserting it must be fake; someone else would have picked it up if it were real. My family is sending me videos and articles about people who are claiming side effects and being ignored, and I'm wondering if there are some $20s laying on the ground.

Who are these people? Who is ignoring them?

Have they contacted local and/or state and/or federal health and regulatory agencies?

Have their claims been evaluated by professionals or officials? Does "ignored" actually mean investigated, and found to not be credible?

On top of this, articles and videos from people claiming side effects fall squarely into the anecdata category. Evidence from billions of administered vaccine doses falls squarely into the empirical category.

Believing that these claims must be real because someone put them on the interwebz is making the same logical error as your economist.

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#387

Post by labawi »

jhgb wrote: post #380
labawi wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're comparing yearly numbers to a one/two shot event. A relevant timeframe needs to be selected, otherwise you may as well use cases/people/hour (0.2 .. 2 case per 177Mp·h) or cases/people/decade (18k..180k cases per (177Mp·decayear)). Article says most cases happen within a few days from second shot. Guesstimating at 5 days, we get 1800..1800/365*5 => 25..250 cases per 177Mp·5d. 145 cases would be around the numb…

I'm not quite sure how this is relevant here. The vaccination is not going to be repeating with a larger than annual frequency. And the vaccinations themselves happen throughout the year anyway, so how does it matter how much the side effect is delayed? The side effect is also going to be happening throughout the year; it's not like 177M people are going to be vaccinated on the same day, which is what you seem to be…

Why a year? Why not daily? The vaccinations happen throughout the day. Why not per lifetime? You can only get the second dose once. I could pick any interval, either customary (hourly, daily, monthly) or completely arbitrary (per 47 seconds) and get any number as a result. If you can't argue why a per-year incidence is the proper number and not any other, then that by itself disproves the validity of the approach. You can't just pick an arbitrary number for what is effectively a scaling factor and say works for me.

I wanted to compare vaccination occurrences with regular ones. Most of reported vaccine carditis happens a few days after second dose, so I compared those with the average incidence for a few (5) days. I.e. how likely is one to get vaccine carditis vs. background carditis during the same or equivalent time.

Sorry about the last paragraph. I meant vaccine carditis vs. non-vaccine for young males during the same time one would be at risk from vaccine carditis. Mainly as a sanity check for the signal-to-noise ratio.

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#388

Post by jhgb »

labawi wrote: post #387
jhgb wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not quite sure how this is relevant here. The vaccination is not going to be repeating with a larger than annual frequency. And the vaccinations themselves happen throughout the year anyway, so how does it matter how much the side effect is delayed? The side effect is also going to be happening throughout the year; it's not like 177M people are going to be vaccinated on the same day, which is what you seem to be…

Why a year? Why not daily? The vaccinations happen throughout the day. Why not per lifetime? You can only get the second dose once. I could pick any interval, either customary (hourly, daily, monthly) or completely arbitrary (per 47 seconds) and get any number as a result. If you can't argue why a per-year incidence is the proper number and not any other, then that by itself disproves the validity of the approach. Yo…

> Why a year? Why not daily? The vaccinations happen throughout the day.

Because vaccinations take months, perhaps up to a year. In my country it's been at least half a year by now and we're at something like 55-60% of the population.

> Why not per lifetime? You can only get the second dose once.

Lifetime makes it an even worse comparison for natural myocarditis since you can get that in any year of your life. (But if need arises in the future for annual boosters against new strains or something like that, chances are that annual risks will again be the number to look for.)

> I could pick any interval, either customary (hourly, daily, monthly) or completely arbitrary (per 47 seconds) and get any number as a result.

You can pick garbage methodology and get garbage results, agreed. You can do pretty much what you want.

> Most of reported vaccine carditis happens a few days after second dose, so I compared those with the average incidence for a few (5) days.

Which is a complete red herring since how do you know that other kinds of myocarditis don't happen a few days after the initial viral infection as well? Either delay is completely irrelevant since shifting infections of individuals in time does nothing to overall statistics of incidence.

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#389

Post by daveguy »

labawi wrote: post #379
daveguy wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[citation needed] Next time you read something on the internet that sounds like something you would reasonably like to believe, please ask for a citation before you spread misinformation. The cell types that produce it and display it are exactly the same cell types that do it for every bit of foreign protein your immune system needs to protect against . There is nothing sneaky or take-over or unnatural about this pro…

[citation needed] The claims seem incorrect. Please stop.

No. The claim is false. There is nothing close to "hijacking" going on. They are all very standard, highly parallel molecular mechanisms. I can't help that neither of you have basic understanding of biochemistry.

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#390

Post by [deleted] »

labawi wrote: post #384
daveguy wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is absolutely not how it works. You have a fundamental misunderstanding of the RNA vaccine mechanism of action.

Before claiming other people don't know what they're talking about, it would be polite sufficiently understand it and refrain from making false claims yourself. > When a vaccinated cell dies, the debris will contain many spike proteins and protein fragments, which can then be taken up by a type of immune cell called an antigen-presenting cell. [1] Is it true that host cells need to die for the vaccine to take effect?…

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