Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine • Hacker News Board

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#361

Post by mythrwy » Fri, Oct 08, 2021, 5:14 PM UTC

Certhas wrote: post #355

mythrwy wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The probability Texas is a real state is very different then the probability fraud caused Trump to lose the 2020 election. You again are appealing to ridicule. Once again, just to be clear, I'm not saying Trump won the 2020 election. Trump's claims he won for sure and "everyone knows it" are just as nonfactual and people who claim Trump actually won is a "fact" are also making preference based statements of faith, ju…

You are imposing arbitrary and extreme standards for the usage of the term fact. These standards neither reflect real world usage, nor do they reflect any sensible first principle definition. You also consistently conflate trust and faith. I have to trust a number of entities to come to the conclusion that this is a fact. Just like I have to trust a number of social entities to come to the conclusion that the existen…

No not at all.

It's entirely within the realm of probability that an election was fraudulent enough to alter the outcome. That has happened in world history more then once.

On the other hand it's not within the realm of reasonable possibility that Texas doesn't actually exist.

These two scenarios are not comparable.

It very simply is not a "fact" that Joe Biden won the election cleanly (nor the converse). It might be most probable but it is not "fact" and there are people who feel the evidence points to a different conclusion then you have arrived at. Perhaps they are wrong but the issue here is one of "fact" and determining "fact" in this case is a very large search space. At most (right now) we can say what evidence we see and what we believe is most probable, not beat our opponents over the head for how stupid they are for not seeing "facts". (this was my whole point).

faith /fāTH/ noun 1. complete trust or confidence in someone or something.

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#362

Post by acdha » Fri, Oct 08, 2021, 5:22 PM UTC

temeritatis wrote: post #354

acdha wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> To say that the evidence would have been here now is simply not true because we can't possibly know WHEN symptoms will present. Actually, we can. Vaccination isn’t long-term exposure but a brief immune trigger — this is very different from medication being taken over a long term because the vaccine is only in your body for such a short period of time. In the multi-century history of vaccination, side effects are al…

I don't wanna be a jerk, but honestly that proves my point. The correct wording would be; "there's a high probability that we can". But saying "we can" is clear cut. You provide strong arguments, but unless you have a time machine, you can't argue in definitives.

That's just providing that your point is about pedantry. It is commonly accepted in life that there are many events which are not completely impossible but are so low probability that they are not worth considering. Just as we do not commonly go around accounting for the possibility of a meteor strike or alien invasion, we also do not commonly describe the risks of common medical procedures involving the discovery of a previously-unsuspected immune mechanism with a time delay measured in years.

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#363

Post by daveguy » Fri, Oct 08, 2021, 5:49 PM UTC

twofornone wrote: post #360

fspeech wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

mRNA in cells are constantly degraded by nucleases. Half life is measured in hours. Not only that RNA itself is unstable at room temperature.

And what about the spike protein, which becomes embedded in and expressed at the cell wall? What do wayward spike proteins do inside cells? What are the full consequences of your immune system suddenly attacking your own cells? Are you potentially inducing permanent or semi permanent autoimmune conditions? And such an autoimmune disease, if caused by the vaccine, would possibly be difficult to detect, especially on s…

[citation needed]

Next time you read something on the internet that sounds like something you would reasonably like to believe, please ask for a citation before you spread misinformation. The cell types that produce it and display it are exactly the same cell types that do it for every bit of foreign protein your immune system needs to protect against. There is nothing sneaky or take-over or unnatural about this process that happens all the time in your body.

Please stop.

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#364

Post by daveguy » Fri, Oct 08, 2021, 5:51 PM UTC

raxxorrax wrote: post #338

daveguy wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> hijacks your cellular machinery No. It doesn't. This is completely ignorant misinformation. Your molecular machinery for creating proteins are doing so constantly. Introducing a bit of code that produces a protein that looks like the virus is in no way "hijacking" your molecular machinery. Your machinery happily chugs along with every other of the 10s of thousands of other proteins being produced at the same time.…

Technically it is nothing else than hijacking and it will lead to the cells death because it produces the foreign protein as instructed until it is killed by your immune system.

This is absolutely not how it works. You have a fundamental misunderstanding of the RNA vaccine mechanism of action.

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#365

Post by temeritatis » Fri, Oct 08, 2021, 6:04 PM UTC

acdha wrote: post #362

temeritatis wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't wanna be a jerk, but honestly that proves my point. The correct wording would be; "there's a high probability that we can". But saying "we can" is clear cut. You provide strong arguments, but unless you have a time machine, you can't argue in definitives.

That's just providing that your point is about pedantry. It is commonly accepted in life that there are many events which are not completely impossible but are so low probability that they are not worth considering. Just as we do not commonly go around accounting for the possibility of a meteor strike or alien invasion, we also do not commonly describe the risks of common medical procedures involving the discovery of…

Absolutely. I am nitpicking. And i am in a mood to debate to be honest so i hope you're not offended. I too use commonly accepted assumptions in daily life. However, in debates i try to steer clear of them (reasons outlined above). But to each his own! Have a good night fellow human :)

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#366

Post by mox1 » Fri, Oct 08, 2021, 7:23 PM UTC

twofornone wrote: post #136

tessierashpool wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, the anti-vax hockey player Josh Archibald recently caught COVID and developed myocarditis as a consequence. It's among the known sequelae. Your risk of myocarditis from COVID is 10x-20x your risk of myocarditis from a vaccine. (One of many many sources: https://twitter.com/awong37/status/1444825498018795521 )

>Your risk of myocarditis from COVID is 10x-20x your risk of myocarditis from a vaccine It really bothers me that people are still touting such numbers around as obvious, indisputable facts given the poor quality of both covid and adverse effect statistical data. 1. What are the odds that you will experience symptoms if you get myocarditis? 2. What are the odds that vaccine induced myocarditis will be reported as suc…

We have 50+ years of history on vaccines, billions of doses, etc.

That history of research says this: If "symptoms" don't show up within 6 weeks, they don't really show up at all.

That is to say, with ALL other vaccines in existence, issues have shown up within 6 weeks.

Here is an article which explains it, but this is like common knowledge amongst epidemiologists: https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/vaccines-...

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#367

Post by bserge » Fri, Oct 08, 2021, 7:30 PM UTC

Dove wrote: post #358

blitzar wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. And heroin addicts, and morbidly obease people.

This line of reasoning goes to a dark place. You can't know what makes sense in someone else's life. A heroin addict self-medicating unbearable pain is, to me, a tragic figure deserving help. A morbidly obese person may be suffering from an undiagnosed underlying condition that makes diet and exercise impossible. A smoker may need the stress release. Should we refuse to treat any injury sustained by the Wright brothe…

Lol

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#368

Post by twofornone » Fri, Oct 08, 2021, 7:36 PM UTC

mox1 wrote: post #366

twofornone wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Your risk of myocarditis from COVID is 10x-20x your risk of myocarditis from a vaccine It really bothers me that people are still touting such numbers around as obvious, indisputable facts given the poor quality of both covid and adverse effect statistical data. 1. What are the odds that you will experience symptoms if you get myocarditis? 2. What are the odds that vaccine induced myocarditis will be reported as suc…

We have 50+ years of history on vaccines, billions of doses, etc. That history of research says this: If "symptoms" don't show up within 6 weeks, they don't really show up at all. That is to say, with ALL other vaccines in existence, issues have shown up within 6 weeks. Here is an article which explains it, but this is like common knowledge amongst epidemiologists: https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/v…

Comparing mRNA technology to conventional vaccines is borderline disingenuous. I don't think we've ever vaccinated people with live pathogens (or at least not deactivated), and we certainly have never repurposed our own cells to manufacture an inflammatory protein which then migrates to cell surfaces.

Autoimmune disorders in particular are not necessarily going to appear in 6 weeks. Especially when the data is so noisy and there's a clear, career risking stigma against reporting anything.

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#369

Post by twofornone » Fri, Oct 08, 2021, 8:08 PM UTC

daveguy wrote: post #363

twofornone wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what about the spike protein, which becomes embedded in and expressed at the cell wall? What do wayward spike proteins do inside cells? What are the full consequences of your immune system suddenly attacking your own cells? Are you potentially inducing permanent or semi permanent autoimmune conditions? And such an autoimmune disease, if caused by the vaccine, would possibly be difficult to detect, especially on s…

[citation needed] Next time you read something on the internet that sounds like something you would reasonably like to believe, please ask for a citation before you spread misinformation. The cell types that produce it and display it are exactly the same cell types that do it for every bit of foreign protein your immune system needs to protect against . There is nothing sneaky or take-over or unnatural about this pro…

Why do you assume that people critical of the vaccines aren't consuming scientific literature?

This source[1] cites the following from a dead link to the cdc website:

>Upon entering the cell’s cytoplasm, the mRNA redirects some of the cell’s protein production machinery (of which ribosomes are the workhorse) to begin producing viral spike proteins. The produced spike proteins are then incorporated into and “displayed” on the host cell’s outer membrane surface

If you want something meatier, here's a detailed source[2] discussing this very point, that because the spike protein is not manufactured with the rest of the virus, at least some S protein expression is expected at the cell surface from the vaccine, in contrast to a true covid infection. And this source links to multiple others on the same subject.

People seem to presume that any information which reflects negatively on the vaccines is automatically misinformation and/or argued in bad faith. Its incredibly toxic to productive discussion.

>The cell types that produce it and display it are exactly the same cell types that do it for every bit of foreign protein your immune system needs to protect against.

I'm not sure what you're implying here - that its normal for your cells to absorb foreign RNA and manufacture inflammatory proteins that are then expressed on cell walls and used to induce what is effectively an autoimmune response?

>There is nothing sneaky or take-over or unnatural about this process that happens all the time in your body.

I'm not saying anything about this is "sneaky" but injecting mRNA with the purpose of manufacturing inflammatory proteins is hardly "natural".

1. https://www.acepnow.com/article/how-the-covid-19-mrna-vaccin...

2. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-021-25589-1

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#370

Post by fspeech » Fri, Oct 08, 2021, 9:30 PM UTC

twofornone wrote: post #369

daveguy wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[citation needed] Next time you read something on the internet that sounds like something you would reasonably like to believe, please ask for a citation before you spread misinformation. The cell types that produce it and display it are exactly the same cell types that do it for every bit of foreign protein your immune system needs to protect against . There is nothing sneaky or take-over or unnatural about this pro…

Why do you assume that people critical of the vaccines aren't consuming scientific literature? This source[1] cites the following from a dead link to the cdc website: >Upon entering the cell’s cytoplasm, the mRNA redirects some of the cell’s protein production machinery (of which ribosomes are the workhorse) to begin producing viral spike proteins. The produced spike proteins are then incorporated into and “displayed…

It is perfectly fine to discuss the adverse effects of vaccines, but it is not good faith to open the discussion with a conspiratorial tone. Billions of shots have been given. That is a tremendous amount of statistical power to discern problems. There are also millions of deaths from confirmed COVID alone. It helps no one to even hint that somehow the side effects of vaccines are comparable to the real disease.