Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

reuters.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

371–380 of 407 posts

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#371

Post by daveguy »

twofornone wrote: post #369
daveguy wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[citation needed] Next time you read something on the internet that sounds like something you would reasonably like to believe, please ask for a citation before you spread misinformation. The cell types that produce it and display it are exactly the same cell types that do it for every bit of foreign protein your immune system needs to protect against . There is nothing sneaky or take-over or unnatural about this pro…

Why do you assume that people critical of the vaccines aren't consuming scientific literature? This source[1] cites the following from a dead link to the cdc website: >Upon entering the cell’s cytoplasm, the mRNA redirects some of the cell’s protein production machinery (of which ribosomes are the workhorse) to begin producing viral spike proteins. The produced spike proteins are then incorporated into and “displayed…

You apparently didn't understand what an APC is. APC is Antigen Presenting Cell. The entire purpose of that cell is to present bits of foreign protein to the rest of your immune system. It is full of foreign bits of protein because that is what it does. It is no more going to be hurt by presenting antigens than your neurons are hurt delivering electrical signals from sensory perceptions.

If you are going to cite literature at least understand what you're citing.

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#372

Post by daveguy »

twofornone wrote: post #306
daveguy wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> hijacks your cellular machinery No. It doesn't. This is completely ignorant misinformation. Your molecular machinery for creating proteins are doing so constantly. Introducing a bit of code that produces a protein that looks like the virus is in no way "hijacking" your molecular machinery. Your machinery happily chugs along with every other of the 10s of thousands of other proteins being produced at the same time.…

You may not like the connotation of the word but if "hijack" can be used to refer to taking over something and repurposing it for yourself, then yes, this is a "hijacking". Especially when viruses are commonly described in the same way, since the mechanism and outcome is the same: an entity other than the human cell is controlling the output of the organelles. In any case this is a pedantic argument and changes absol…

The entire purpose of these cells is to present foreign matter. It's no more highjacking than watching a movie is hijacking your optical neurons.

It is simply presenting the information in the language of your immune system.

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#373

Post by TulliusCicero »

mythrwy wrote: post #347
TulliusCicero wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's exactly what I'm saying. I can't prove a negative -- the burden of proof is on the other party. By your reasoning, being unable to prove a negative means that, outside of maybe math, facts don't really exist. I can't prove that WW2 wasn't an elaborate hoax, I can't prove that Texas is a real state, I can't prove that babies aren't brought around by very stealthy storks. The point is, you already accept WW2 as…

The probability Texas is a real state is very different then the probability fraud caused Trump to lose the 2020 election. You again are appealing to ridicule. Once again, just to be clear, I'm not saying Trump won the 2020 election. Trump's claims he won for sure and "everyone knows it" are just as nonfactual and people who claim Trump actually won is a "fact" are also making preference based statements of faith, ju…

> The probability Texas is a real state is very different then the probability fraud caused Trump to lose the 2020 election.

It's still non-zero, so by your own reasoning it cannot be an "absolute fact".

You just don't like the fact that someone's pointing out your own internal inconsistency.

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#374

Post by daveguy »

twofornone wrote: post #369
daveguy wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[citation needed] Next time you read something on the internet that sounds like something you would reasonably like to believe, please ask for a citation before you spread misinformation. The cell types that produce it and display it are exactly the same cell types that do it for every bit of foreign protein your immune system needs to protect against . There is nothing sneaky or take-over or unnatural about this pro…

Why do you assume that people critical of the vaccines aren't consuming scientific literature? This source[1] cites the following from a dead link to the cdc website: >Upon entering the cell’s cytoplasm, the mRNA redirects some of the cell’s protein production machinery (of which ribosomes are the workhorse) to begin producing viral spike proteins. The produced spike proteins are then incorporated into and “displayed…

It is normal for your cells to manufacture bits of RNA into proteins. It's what they do all day. There is no hijacking. Cells do this constantly. And massively parallel. If each cell could only translate one rna sequence at a time you wouldn't have made it past zygote.

It's normal for Antigen Presenting Cells to present antigens on the surface of their cell membrane. It's what they do all day.

So, yes. Every bit of the process is completely natural and normal.

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#375

Post by mythrwy »

TulliusCicero wrote: post #373
mythrwy wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The probability Texas is a real state is very different then the probability fraud caused Trump to lose the 2020 election. You again are appealing to ridicule. Once again, just to be clear, I'm not saying Trump won the 2020 election. Trump's claims he won for sure and "everyone knows it" are just as nonfactual and people who claim Trump actually won is a "fact" are also making preference based statements of faith, ju…

> The probability Texas is a real state is very different then the probability fraud caused Trump to lose the 2020 election. It's still non-zero, so by your own reasoning it cannot be an "absolute fact". You just don't like the fact that someone's pointing out your own internal inconsistency.

Texas can be proven to exist quite easily. Proving the 2020 election was clean is a different matter.

But you probably know this on some level already.

“That which enters the mind through reason can be corrected. That which is admitted through faith, hardly ever.”

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#376

Post by labawi »

fspeech wrote: post #357
raxxorrax wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Technically it is nothing else than hijacking and it will lead to the cells death because it produces the foreign protein as instructed until it is killed by your immune system.

mRNA in cells are constantly degraded by nucleases. Half life is measured in hours. Not only that RNA itself is unstable at room temperature.

Does that include the engineered quasi-mRNA in the vaccine, that was specially crafted to evade certain types of degradation?

The vaccine is not and purposefully does not act like normal mRNA. It's not even made of the same 4 building blocks.

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#377

Post by pstuart »

RustyRussell wrote: post #249
pstuart wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vaccines have never been promoted as 100% safe nor 100% effective.

Australian here. I wish this were true: the messaging here has been extremely simplistic. I expect a backlash when we're 80% vaccinated and COVID doesn't magically vanish :(

Out of curiosity, could you share the official messaging that contradicts my assertion?

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#378

Post by labawi »

jhgb wrote: post #305
eyelidlessness wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quite a lot of health impacts globally are unevenly distributed locally. I don’t know the local numbers either, but I’d caution against extrapolating from global numbers.

According to https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/news/covid-19-vaccines-update-o... , the incidence in Europe should be 1-10 cases per 100k capita per year, which would be ~1800-18000 in a population of 177M.

You're comparing yearly numbers to a one/two shot event. A relevant timeframe needs to be selected, otherwise you may as well use cases/people/hour (0.2 .. 2 case per 177Mp·h) or cases/people/decade (18k..180k cases per (177Mp·decayear)).

Article says most cases happen within a few days from second shot. Guesstimating at 5 days, we get 1800..1800/365*5 => 25..250 cases per 177Mp·5d.

145 cases would be around the number of otherwise expected cases, if measured on a population level. Assuming young people have lower incidence rate and it is not already accounted for, there would be more vaccines carditis than natural occurrences (EDIT: during the relevant 5 days after 2nd shot).

Still likely less than those expected from covid infection (didn't do math).

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#379

Post by labawi »

daveguy wrote: post #363
twofornone wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what about the spike protein, which becomes embedded in and expressed at the cell wall? What do wayward spike proteins do inside cells? What are the full consequences of your immune system suddenly attacking your own cells? Are you potentially inducing permanent or semi permanent autoimmune conditions? And such an autoimmune disease, if caused by the vaccine, would possibly be difficult to detect, especially on s…

[citation needed] Next time you read something on the internet that sounds like something you would reasonably like to believe, please ask for a citation before you spread misinformation. The cell types that produce it and display it are exactly the same cell types that do it for every bit of foreign protein your immune system needs to protect against . There is nothing sneaky or take-over or unnatural about this pro…

[citation needed]

The claims seem incorrect.

Please stop.

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#380

Post by jhgb »

labawi wrote: post #378
jhgb wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/news/covid-19-vaccines-update-o... , the incidence in Europe should be 1-10 cases per 100k capita per year, which would be ~1800-18000 in a population of 177M.

You're comparing yearly numbers to a one/two shot event. A relevant timeframe needs to be selected, otherwise you may as well use cases/people/hour (0.2 .. 2 case per 177Mp·h) or cases/people/decade (18k..180k cases per (177Mp·decayear)). Article says most cases happen within a few days from second shot. Guesstimating at 5 days, we get 1800..1800/365*5 => 25..250 cases per 177Mp·5d. 145 cases would be around the numb…

I'm not quite sure how this is relevant here. The vaccination is not going to be repeating with a larger than annual frequency. And the vaccinations themselves happen throughout the year anyway, so how does it matter how much the side effect is delayed? The side effect is also going to be happening throughout the year; it's not like 177M people are going to be vaccinated on the same day, which is what you seem to be assuming for some reason.

> Assuming young people have lower incidence rate and it is not already accounted for, there would be more vaccines carditis than natural occurrences.

No, absolutely not. Definitely not according to your flawed reasoning.

Post reply on HN