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Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

reuters.com

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Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#311

Post by lightsighter »

tinus_hn wrote: post #192
lightsighter wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What again is the rush to vaccinate the lowest risk age group? Because they still contribute to chain of transmission to the most vulnerable members of society, likely in a disproportional way since younger members of society tend to socialize more. Fighting a virus is a collective action. In order to stop transmission to the vulnerable members, you need to cut edges along all paths through the graph. Furthermore,…

Vaccinated people can still get infected and transmit the virus to others, with or without mutations. The idea that vaccinated people are ‘safe to be around’ is an outdated fantasy.

I never said it stopped all transmission, but it will stop a large fraction of it. We're playing games of probability. Anybody that deals in absolutes is living in a fantasy world.

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#312

Post by bawolff »

yes_man wrote: post #22
ceejayoz wrote: post #2

> "A Nordic study involving Finland, Sweden, Norway and Denmark found that men under the age of 30 who received Moderna Spikevax had a slightly higher risk than others of developing myocarditis," he said. I find it frustrating that we’re still not putting numbers on statements like this in news articles. How slight?

https://thl.fi/en/web/thlfi-en/-/thl-monitoring-myocarditis-... According to Finnish Institute for Health and Welfare, an additional 4 cases per 100k men under the age of 30. They also note that having covid is a risk factor for myocarditis. So perhaps still worth it to take the shot. Possibly they are doing this to put out the antivax wildfires in social media by reacting to statistical information about risks. So a…

I think the reasoning is, they have two vaccines, one that in rare cases causes this one that doesn't. Even if the liklihood of the side effect is very low and the severity is also pretty low (its generally not life threatening or anything), if you have two vaccines, one that causes the side effect and one that doesn't, why would you use the one that does, regardless of how insignificant the risk is in absolute terms.

The comparison isn't moderna vs no vaccine (in which case moderna would win the risk trade-off). The comparison is moderna vs pfizer.

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#313

Post by bawolff »

bserge wrote: post #122
nabla9 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like if you take everything into account, taking the vaccine might not provide any benefit from men under 30. Any medical intervention must be beneficial to justify the use. If it's so and so, or equal risk, then it's not done. EDIT: The alternative is not stopping vaccinations. Men under 30 are given Pfizer.

I mean, yeah. If vaccines don't protect against virus spread... Fuck it, let people decide. Either take a vaccine or risk getting Covid in the wild. Just make it so you can't use a hospital bed in that case. It's only fair to people who are actually forced to go to the hospital, as opposed to gambling for it.

Vaccines do protect against spread though. Not perfectly mind you, but the effect is still significant if a significant portion of the population is vaccinated.

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#314

Post by marvin »

ceejayoz wrote: post #287
marvin wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The real ethical tradeoff is "what's your chance of contracting covid and getting complications in the one-week delay between cancelling your Moderna appointment and getting the Pfeizer vaccine instead" vs. "what's the chance of getting myocarditis from side effects of the Moderna vaccine". Seems like most people in this thread hear "Scandinavian authorities are stopping the vaccination program", when the recommendat…

> Seems like most people in this thread hear "Scandinavian authorities are stopping the vaccination program", when the recommendation is rather to switch vaccines for men under a certain age. > The ethical consideration is not particularly complicated, and Scandinavian health authorities are not risk-averse idiots. They simply care about an equation that might lead to a couple of saved lives in total. I think this le…

That's a subtle point. My stance is that their ethical obligation in that regard stops at the border, given that the reason it's a consideration is malicious actors rather than a direct consequence. Otherwise you're letting external, malicious actors hold your population hostage.

I don't have numbers for Scandinavia as a whole, but 95% of Norway's population have stated that they will get vaccinated, and we're approaching that number. Antivaxxer disinformation is not a problem that has significant effect here.

While it's a tragedy that the USA and others have large populations that are susceptible to propaganda from malignant forces, it's ultimately a matter of US interior politics. It's a whole separate question that not something other countries should shape their politics to conform to. There's very little the international community can do about US poverty, its ridiculously polarized political climate, education system, power imbalances and so on.

It's not that I don't care at all; I can see the mathematics of it. But that kind of butterfly effect consideration will quickly lead you down a rabbit hole that prevents you from doing the right thing because someone is holding a gun to a stranger's head.

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#315

Post by marvin »

azinman2 wrote: post #250
marvin wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These are US numbers, though. Norway, e.g., has tested like crazy and diagnosed 4% of its population with covid throughout the pandemic. Given that the US numbers for covid cases are at least three times higher, the risk assessment will necessarily be different. The Scandinavian solution will likely be to just delay vaccination for a week while a dose of the Pfeizer vaccine is tracked down. The change of contracting…

That 4% will only go up over time. Per the article they’re only stopping a select demographic for Pfizer.

My point is it won't go up much during the small delay when the small percentage of as-yet unvaccinated young men simply take the other vaccine instead.

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#316

Post by m0zg »

It's being limited only for kids and youth. Simple truth our media is studiously trying to sweep under the rug - almost nobody below age of 30 dies from COVID. Compared to all cause mortality the numbers are laughable and ridiculous. Fewer than 500 kids died _with_ COVID since the beginning of the pandemic in the US. Not _of_, _with_. Under these circumstances, there's simply no justification to give these experimental vaccines to children. And yes, Moderna is still experimental, and it says so in the leaflet they give out when you go for a vaccination. It seems to me that cooler heads are prevailing in at least some European countries, at least until Pfizer/Moderna lobbyists wake up and deliver large suitcases of cash to the decision makers.

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#317

Post by blitzar »

curmudgeon22 wrote: post #230
bserge wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, yeah. If vaccines don't protect against virus spread... Fuck it, let people decide. Either take a vaccine or risk getting Covid in the wild. Just make it so you can't use a hospital bed in that case. It's only fair to people who are actually forced to go to the hospital, as opposed to gambling for it.

Should smokers be denied medical treatment related to that choice too?

Yes. And heroin addicts, and morbidly obease people.

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#318

Post by blub »

tessierashpool wrote: post #91
yes_man wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://thl.fi/en/web/thlfi-en/-/thl-monitoring-myocarditis-... According to Finnish Institute for Health and Welfare, an additional 4 cases per 100k men under the age of 30. They also note that having covid is a risk factor for myocarditis. So perhaps still worth it to take the shot. Possibly they are doing this to put out the antivax wildfires in social media by reacting to statistical information about risks. So a…

Yeah, the anti-vax hockey player Josh Archibald recently caught COVID and developed myocarditis as a consequence. It's among the known sequelae. Your risk of myocarditis from COVID is 10x-20x your risk of myocarditis from a vaccine. (One of many many sources: https://twitter.com/awong37/status/1444825498018795521 )

If there's so many sources that the risk is 10-20x, then perhaps you can choose one which is not a tweet.

One can't be expected to know what the credentials of some random doctor on twitter are and he doesn't reference any sources of his own.

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#319

Post by blub »

orf wrote: post #135
blub wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s no connection between car crashes in the US and risk of myocarditis from the vaccine in Sweden. Each country is looking at the risk for its own citizens.

As I said in the post you're replying to some people commenting here believe that the takeaway from this is that the vaccine is a great risk while interacting with cars daily, which is a far greater risk that they pay no attention to.

In that case, another poster already explained why this comparison makes no sense. Vaccination needs to be compared with the lack of vaccination, not with driving, getting out of bed or sky diving.

Yes, life has its risks and that's why it's smart to look at the data before you make each individual decisions.

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