Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine • Hacker News Board

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#291

Post by AndrewBissell » Fri, Oct 08, 2021, 2:42 AM UTC

ceejayoz wrote: post #280

AndrewBissell wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To state that children will be put at risk by the vaccines is not "fear porn," it is clearly the case. The reason the media is pumping out "your kids are in grave danger from Covid" and not "they should take one to help protect the at-risk population" is because they know no parent in their right mind would go for the latter.

> To state that children will be put at risk by the vaccines is not "fear porn," it is clearly the case. To argue that COVID is not a threat to children, but the vaccines are, is an inconsistent position. Children are, statistically, at quite low risk from both. As a parent, I'm quite comfortable with the idea of my children taking the very very very small risk of a vaccine reaction in order to not go grandparent-les…

How do you even know the risk is "very very very small"? Pfizer ran an abbreviated trial with just ~1200 kids in the trial arm. The group was so small they couldn't even reach a conclusion as to whether it was effective against symptomatic COVID. The idea that it will even help prevent your kids from transmitting it is pure assumption on your part (or, perhaps more accurately, a leap of faith).

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#292

Post by smrtinsert » Fri, Oct 08, 2021, 2:46 AM UTC

gorwell wrote: post #59

A lot of comments here asking for specific numbers and making comparisons to other risks. That's exactly how one should be looking at this. What I don't understand is why people don't apply this same critical thought process to the risks of Covid? For example, do you know what the risk of hospitalization from Covid is when unvaccinated? If you said >50%, you would be in good company. It's the most common answer. But…

I wished this was a sarcastic comment but it wasn't. It's so sad we're years into this and people still have no sense of scale. Is it hubris? I'm not sure, but it's overwhelmingly sad.

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#293

Post by ceejayoz » Fri, Oct 08, 2021, 2:46 AM UTC

AndrewBissell wrote: post #291

ceejayoz wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> To state that children will be put at risk by the vaccines is not "fear porn," it is clearly the case. To argue that COVID is not a threat to children, but the vaccines are, is an inconsistent position. Children are, statistically, at quite low risk from both. As a parent, I'm quite comfortable with the idea of my children taking the very very very small risk of a vaccine reaction in order to not go grandparent-les…

How do you even know the risk is "very very very small"? Pfizer ran an abbreviated trial with just ~1200 kids in the trial arm. The group was so small they couldn't even reach a conclusion as to whether it was effective against symptomatic COVID. The idea that it will even help prevent your kids from transmitting it is pure assumption on your part (or, perhaps more accurately, a leap of faith).

We’ve given vaccines to tens of millions of 12-17 year olds.

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#294

Post by nojokes » Fri, Oct 08, 2021, 2:49 AM UTC

thepasswordis wrote: post #68

In nordic countries these vaccines are restricted. In the US, they're required . Very odd.

Moderna vaccine is not authorized for 12-17 olds in US. Has never been, so no need to restrict it.

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#295

Post by nojokes » Fri, Oct 08, 2021, 2:51 AM UTC

silicon2401 wrote: post #113

georgekv wrote: post #108

From NEJM Israeli study on Pfizer: "In our study, definite or probable cases of myocarditis among persons between the ages of 16 and 19 years within 21 days after the second vaccine dose occurred in approximately 1 of 6637 male recipients and in 1 of 99,853 female recipients." Moderna shot is worse then for boys. What again is the rush to vaccinate the lowest risk age group? https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM…

this is exactly why the dogmatic culture around vaccines is toxic. Nobody should be forced to take a vaccine before the side effects are even known.

And how are you going to find these rare events when you do not use the vaccine?

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#296

Post by jhgb » Fri, Oct 08, 2021, 2:59 AM UTC

bserge wrote: post #116

jbergstroem wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In sweden, this seems to be the "recommendation" from the government: https://www.folkhalsomyndigheten.se/nyheter-och-press/nyhets... ..which links to https://www.lakemedelsverket.se/sv/nyheter/covid-19-mrna-vac... ..which in turn seems to point here: https://www.lakemedelsverket.se/4a0b25/globalassets/dokument... ..which references EMA & EES which are European that states "145 cases of myocarditis out of 177M dosis…

I assume that's compared to normal figures (which are what, btw?). Because if normal figures showed 145 cases of myocarditis out of 177M people, that would be embarrassing as fuck.

Apparently there's like two millions of cases of myocarditis globally, so on average you'd probably expect tens of thousands of cases among 177M people. In what way would 145 cases be embarrassing for "normal figures"? I'd expect that a medical miracle would be praised at that point.

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#297

Post by daveguy » Fri, Oct 08, 2021, 3:01 AM UTC

twofornone wrote: post #265

fspeech wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The virus is very proinflammatory so it's not surprising that vaccines that simulate parts of the virus are also proinflammatory. There even appears to be a dose dependence: Moderna packs in a lot more than Pfizer-BNT. So there is a rational framework to think about this. What is bizarre is how people could in the same breath show a lot of fear of the vaccine but then brush off the risk from uncontrolled viral reprod…

There are at least three reasons that an injection is not the same. 1. The sudden viral load is orders of magnitude larger than typical exposure and given the complexity of the immune system, may produce a different response. Also recall that unlike traditional vaccines this mRNA hijacks your cellular machinery to produce an inflammatory protein - so comparing it to past vaccines in this respect is invalid. 2. Again…

> hijacks your cellular machinery

No. It doesn't. This is completely ignorant misinformation. Your molecular machinery for creating proteins are doing so constantly. Introducing a bit of code that produces a protein that looks like the virus is in no way "hijacking" your molecular machinery. Your machinery happily chugs along with every other of the 10s of thousands of other proteins being produced at the same time. Nothing is hijacked.

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#298

Post by angelzen » Fri, Oct 08, 2021, 3:08 AM UTC

s5300 wrote: post #85

sergiotapia wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's heretical to say such things and "anti-science" as branded by the media. The fact that California now wants kids to get the vaccine is bonkers to me. Kids don't even feel this shit if they catch it. Pharmaceutical companies must be paying big bucks to the politicians in that state.

If kids "don't even feel this shit if they catch it" Why have pediatric ICU beds been near or at capacity and care as a whole on the brink of failure from months of completely fucked working conditions for the doctors and nurses? Along with other kids not dealing with COVID having life saving medical procedures/treatments indefinitely delayed until beds are back down below a certain fill for some amount of time? I've…

There are 3006 counties in the USA. Given that the pandemic is not trivial, it is possible to find a couple counties with overwhelmed ICU beds on any given day. The catch is that the counties change as the pandemic waves come and go. The media chases around for the counties that get overwhelmed, and ignores the vast majority of counties that are not overwhelmed. That before taking in account that, for economic reasons, ICUs are not build for pandemics, with double digit occupancy rates even outside epidemic waves.

For example, here's actual pedriatic ICU data from Seattle metro area with ~4M people. I bet this never made the news.

MARY BRIDGE CHILDREN'S HOSPITAL, 55.5%, 6.1 of 11.0 beds used

SEATTLE CHILDREN'S HOSPITAL, 83.0%, 71.4 of 86.0 beds used

https://datacentral.kitsapsun.com/covid-19-hospital-capacity

Edit: Turns out that the KitsapSun app has county-level data for all of USA. For Tarrant county (your top 2 links), right now the pedriatic ICU data is:

COOK CHILDRENS MEDICAL CENTER, 82.5%, 34.3 of 41.6 beds used

Not great, but not months-long-near-capacity-brink-of-failure situation either. The adult ICU situation is much worse, hopefully it will retreat in the coming weeks.

https://datacentral.kitsapsun.com/covid-19-hospital-capacity...

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#299

Post by manwe150 » Fri, Oct 08, 2021, 3:08 AM UTC

tartoran wrote: post #256

curmudgeon22 wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should smokers be denied medical treatment related to that choice too?

If they overwhelmed the medical system to the detriment of others then yes. And this is coming from an ex smoker who knew it was bad for you when begun smoking. Now this is slightly different for other age groups that started their habit when the tobacco industry were paying doctors to promote smoking.

Fortunately, I don’t know anyone addicted to getting the vaccine daily, so the proposed choice is nonsensical.

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#300

Post by nojokes » Fri, Oct 08, 2021, 3:13 AM UTC

noetic_techy wrote: post #110

The problem is that the perception of public trust is eroding significantly the more we learn and the more fervent the mandates become. We pulled the swine flu vaccine for way less back in 2010, I think it was 12 cases of GBS only! The fact that I know of people who have either had mycarditis AND clots tells me the rate is much higher then reported by VAERS. The reason damn near everyone except for adamant anti-vax h…

You can hone your vaccines as long as you want when the disease prevalence is low. For example when you have archived a large enough immunity by unfortunate natural infection or by previous vaccines.

During pandemic, vaccines are quickly developed like happened with H1N1 in 2009 that was last modern pandemic before SARS-Cov-2. Before that was Hong-Kong flu pandemic and before that Asian. In all cases the vaccine development was very fast. For Hong-Kong flu it was 4 months. For Asian flu it was a little longer. Development a vaccine for Swine flu took also few months but rapid production failed and the vaccine was delayed.