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Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

reuters.com

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Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#111

Post by nabla9 »

tptacek wrote: post #95
nabla9 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like if you take everything into account, taking the vaccine might not provide any benefit from men under 30. Any medical intervention must be beneficial to justify the use. If it's so and so, or equal risk, then it's not done. EDIT: The alternative is not stopping vaccinations. Men under 30 are given Pfizer.

The number of C19 fatalities under 30 in the US appears to easily exceed the number of vaccine-related myocarditis cases. The overwhelming majority of those myocarditis cases followed a benign course. Later Another thing to consider is that the myocarditis rate from C19 itself may exceed that of the vaccine, which would basically refute the argument against vaccination. (By all means, pick vaccines strategically.)

It's not necessarily the same here in the Nordics.

The alternative is not stopping vaccinations. Men under 30 are given Pfizer.

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#112

Post by angelzen »

tessierashpool wrote: post #91
yes_man wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://thl.fi/en/web/thlfi-en/-/thl-monitoring-myocarditis-... According to Finnish Institute for Health and Welfare, an additional 4 cases per 100k men under the age of 30. They also note that having covid is a risk factor for myocarditis. So perhaps still worth it to take the shot. Possibly they are doing this to put out the antivax wildfires in social media by reacting to statistical information about risks. So a…

Yeah, the anti-vax hockey player Josh Archibald recently caught COVID and developed myocarditis as a consequence. It's among the known sequelae. Your risk of myocarditis from COVID is 10x-20x your risk of myocarditis from a vaccine. (One of many many sources: https://twitter.com/awong37/status/1444825498018795521 )

Tangent note: I wonder if this tweet illustrates yet another way Twitter is driving us crazy.

> Please, get vaccinated.

> I will respect your decision, but I would also like to have you on the team the next 3 seasons. Here is the data, consider getting a vaccine.

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#113

Post by silicon2401 »

georgekv wrote: post #108

From NEJM Israeli study on Pfizer: "In our study, definite or probable cases of myocarditis among persons between the ages of 16 and 19 years within 21 days after the second vaccine dose occurred in approximately 1 of 6637 male recipients and in 1 of 99,853 female recipients." Moderna shot is worse then for boys. What again is the rush to vaccinate the lowest risk age group? https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM…

this is exactly why the dogmatic culture around vaccines is toxic. Nobody should be forced to take a vaccine before the side effects are even known.

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#114

Post by nabla9 »

neuronexmachina wrote: post #94
nabla9 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like if you take everything into account, taking the vaccine might not provide any benefit from men under 30. Any medical intervention must be beneficial to justify the use. If it's so and so, or equal risk, then it's not done. EDIT: The alternative is not stopping vaccinations. Men under 30 are given Pfizer.

Based on the data in the study linked below, the risk for myocarditis among COVID-19 patients is 0.146%, and 0.009% among people without COVID-19 (study was done pre-vaccine). https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7035e5.htm > During March 2020–January 2021, the risk for myocarditis was 0.146% among patients with COVID-19 and 0.009% among patients without COVID-19. Among patients with COVID-19, the risk for myocar…

The alternative is not stopping vaccinations. Men under 30 are given Pfizer.

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#115

Post by nemothekid »

gorwell wrote: post #59

A lot of comments here asking for specific numbers and making comparisons to other risks. That's exactly how one should be looking at this. What I don't understand is why people don't apply this same critical thought process to the risks of Covid? For example, do you know what the risk of hospitalization from Covid is when unvaccinated? If you said >50%, you would be in good company. It's the most common answer. But…

From a public health point of view, deciding whether you should take the vaccine or not is an undoubtedly selfish and short-sighted way to calculate risks. It assumes that hospitalization carries no second-order risks which simply is not the case.

For any given area, the question that must be asked is if a COVID outbreak were to occur does that given area have the health resources to manage an outbreak. <1% risk is meaningless if you don't have an ICU bed. It becomes a public policy problem when someone in a car accident can not get adequate resources or if nurses are doing 18 hours shifts.

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#116

Post by bserge »

jbergstroem wrote: post #12
ceejayoz wrote: post #2

> "A Nordic study involving Finland, Sweden, Norway and Denmark found that men under the age of 30 who received Moderna Spikevax had a slightly higher risk than others of developing myocarditis," he said. I find it frustrating that we’re still not putting numbers on statements like this in news articles. How slight?

In sweden, this seems to be the "recommendation" from the government: https://www.folkhalsomyndigheten.se/nyheter-och-press/nyhets... ..which links to https://www.lakemedelsverket.se/sv/nyheter/covid-19-mrna-vac... ..which in turn seems to point here: https://www.lakemedelsverket.se/4a0b25/globalassets/dokument... ..which references EMA & EES which are European that states "145 cases of myocarditis out of 177M dosis…

I assume that's compared to normal figures (which are what, btw?).

Because if normal figures showed 145 cases of myocarditis out of 177M people, that would be embarrassing as fuck.

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#117

Post by joshuamorton »

gorwell wrote: post #92
summerlight wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But what's the actual risk? > Where did you get that number? As of Sep 29, 2021, US reported 43,289,203 cases where 3,047,033 of them are hospitalized, including vaccinated. This is nowhere close to <1%. I'm pretty sure the number could be much higher with saner medical insurance system.

From the page I linked: The correct answers to hospitalization risk can be calculated using data from the Department of Health and Human Services (via HealthData.gov) and the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). One needs only the following figures: 1) the population of vaccinated and unvaccinated people 2) total hospitalizations resulting from COVID-19 3) hospitalizations of vaccinated people. We u…

Ah, this is doing something dumb/misleading: it's not conditioning the chance of hospitalization on catching covid.

That is, the normal way someone interprets the question "what is the chance you're hospitalized due to covid" is "what is the chance you're hospitalized due to a covid infection", while you're actually asking "what is the chance you, a randomly chosen person, will be hospitalized due to covid [in the next year]". They're conditioning on a time window, and not a case rate.

Another way of looking at their approach is to consider what happens over the lifetime of a person. If you have a .89% chance of being hospitalized due to covid this year, what's the chance over your lifetime? Unless the risk drastically drops, it's something like a 30% chance of being hospitalized over the next 40 years, or for me, very close to a 50% chance of being hospitalized over my entire life.

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#118

Post by [deleted] »

ceejayoz wrote: post #2

> "A Nordic study involving Finland, Sweden, Norway and Denmark found that men under the age of 30 who received Moderna Spikevax had a slightly higher risk than others of developing myocarditis," he said. I find it frustrating that we’re still not putting numbers on statements like this in news articles. How slight?

[deleted]

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#119

Post by zosima »

tptacek wrote: post #95
nabla9 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like if you take everything into account, taking the vaccine might not provide any benefit from men under 30. Any medical intervention must be beneficial to justify the use. If it's so and so, or equal risk, then it's not done. EDIT: The alternative is not stopping vaccinations. Men under 30 are given Pfizer.

The number of C19 fatalities under 30 in the US appears to easily exceed the number of vaccine-related myocarditis cases. The overwhelming majority of those myocarditis cases followed a benign course. Later Another thing to consider is that the myocarditis rate from C19 itself may exceed that of the vaccine, which would basically refute the argument against vaccination. (By all means, pick vaccines strategically.)

But the vast majority of covid fatalities under 30, would be in people with comorbidities.

You could easily argue for vaccinating everyone with comorbidities Also, even in apparently benign myocarditis, there may be heart damage which will not become apparent for many years.

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#120

Post by l1ambda »

ceejayoz wrote: post #2

> "A Nordic study involving Finland, Sweden, Norway and Denmark found that men under the age of 30 who received Moderna Spikevax had a slightly higher risk than others of developing myocarditis," he said. I find it frustrating that we’re still not putting numbers on statements like this in news articles. How slight?

https://torontosun.com/news/provincial/ontario-now-recommend...

"Ontario now recommending against Moderna vaccine for men 18-24 years old...This comes after public health officials determined there is a 1 in 5,000 risk of myocarditis — a form of heart inflammation — following a second dose of the Moderna vaccine."

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