Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine • Hacker News Board

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#131

Post by iratewizard » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 9:07 PM UTC

noetic_techy wrote: post #110

The problem is that the perception of public trust is eroding significantly the more we learn and the more fervent the mandates become. We pulled the swine flu vaccine for way less back in 2010, I think it was 12 cases of GBS only! The fact that I know of people who have either had mycarditis AND clots tells me the rate is much higher then reported by VAERS. The reason damn near everyone except for adamant anti-vax h…

Here's my vaccine anecdata. My wife and I are at the age when everyone we know is starting to have kids. My wife and I got pregnant on the first try, and 3 of her other friends had similar easy success. All 4 unvaccinated. On the vaccinated side of her friends there are two miscarriages, one stillbirth, one who has been trying since June, one trying much longer than that, and one that we think has been trying for a while but hasn't announced it to the group.

If these were caveman times and those people were drinking from a different stream, we would tell them not to drink from it. 3/3 success stories vs. 3 traumatic failures and two or three infertility issues.

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#132

Post by Delk » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 9:08 PM UTC

tomp wrote: post #90

542458 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel you’re taking the wrong message away here - the countries in question have more than enough doses, and can pick and choose between the vaccines. None of the vaccines are more dangerous than covid itself, but the government is recommending that (since they have an adequate supply) their people shouldn’t bother with the ones that are potentially extremely marginally more risky. If the “best” vaccine didn’t exist…

There's a lot of nuance that you're not taking into account. For example, previously infected benefit minimally from getting vaccinated (they're already better protected than non-infected but vaccinated individuals). The risks of covid are strongly correlated with age and healthiness, as are risks of vaccines (e.g. affects particularly young men). There's many variables that individuals can take into account when dec…

It seems the number of myocarditis cases in Finland has been in the order of a few cases out of a few hundred thousand vaccinated in the specific demographic, so perhaps approximately one per 100,000, give or take.

That's still not far from 100 percent, and the 100 percent might be substantially more correct than "not 100 % safe" in terms of the impression it gives.

Of course nothing is actually 100 percent, in anything, ever, but sometimes it's practically close enough from an epidemiological point of view that some people probably find it easier to round things. Better than saying that there may be some rare risk of this or that, because some people are going to get hung up on that, and that might cause more harm than good.

Public communication about these kinds of risks is anything but easy to get right.

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#133

Post by bserge » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 9:09 PM UTC

iammisc wrote: post #99

thepasswordis wrote: post #68

In nordic countries these vaccines are restricted. In the US, they're required . Very odd.

That's because the US is descending into authoritarianism and the nordic countries value freedom, economic and civil.

Oh please.

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#134

Post by iammisc » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 9:09 PM UTC

freyir wrote: post #77

peakaboo wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All these comments fall to the bottom, which means the majority believes the vaccine is safe and effective. The majority also supports the censorship carried out by all social media platforms. I think it has always been like this. The majority follows what they are told and the minority doesn't get listened to.

It falls to the bottom because it lies about the facts (vaccines were never declared 100% safe and effective) and reaches an incorrect conclusion (if one vaccine is determined to be safer than another, it doesn’t follow that vaccines are objectively unsafe, or that being unvaccinated is safer than being vaccinated). It’s a silly comment to make, and potentially harmful. The majority of people in this case don’t, on a…

> he majority of people in this case don’t, on average, “follow what they’re told.” They’re very capable of evaluating facts and data and responding accordingly. That’s what’s happening here.

Given articles like this, it seems unclear that this is true.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/18/briefing/atlanta-shooting...

It seems obvious that large portions of the two major parties, as well as independents are completely factually wrong on salient aspects of COVID.

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#135

Post by orf » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 9:10 PM UTC

blub wrote: post #96

orf wrote: post #27

~2.7 cases of myocarditis per 100k. Deadly car crashes in the US is about 11 deaths per 100k (between 3.3 and 25 when looking at states directly, 18.2 worldwide average). That's not even counting indirect deaths caused by car fumes. So to the person posting the same thing from new accounts about vaccines being a great risk to yourself, I hope you take driving and crossing the road as seriously as you take getting vac…

There’s no connection between car crashes in the US and risk of myocarditis from the vaccine in Sweden. Each country is looking at the risk for its own citizens.

As I said in the post you're replying to some people commenting here believe that the takeaway from this is that the vaccine is a great risk while interacting with cars daily, which is a far greater risk that they pay no attention to.

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#136

Post by twofornone » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 9:11 PM UTC

tessierashpool wrote: post #91

yes_man wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://thl.fi/en/web/thlfi-en/-/thl-monitoring-myocarditis-... According to Finnish Institute for Health and Welfare, an additional 4 cases per 100k men under the age of 30. They also note that having covid is a risk factor for myocarditis. So perhaps still worth it to take the shot. Possibly they are doing this to put out the antivax wildfires in social media by reacting to statistical information about risks. So a…

Yeah, the anti-vax hockey player Josh Archibald recently caught COVID and developed myocarditis as a consequence. It's among the known sequelae. Your risk of myocarditis from COVID is 10x-20x your risk of myocarditis from a vaccine. (One of many many sources: https://twitter.com/awong37/status/1444825498018795521 )

>Your risk of myocarditis from COVID is 10x-20x your risk of myocarditis from a vaccine

It really bothers me that people are still touting such numbers around as obvious, indisputable facts given the poor quality of both covid and adverse effect statistical data.

1. What are the odds that you will experience symptoms if you get myocarditis?

2. What are the odds that vaccine induced myocarditis will be reported as such? There is a wealth of anecdotal evidence of people complaining about all manner of possible vaccine reactions to completely dismissive doctors, and filling out a VAERS report is time consuming and already overwhelmed medical practitioners are unlikely to spend 30+ minutes on a report.

3. Does vaccine (or covid) induced myocarditis have long term consequences, even if asymptomatic or mild? I've read repeatedly that myocarditis of any severity represents some degree of permanent damage but have not been able to conclusively verify this statement.

4. Why are we putting so much faith into the statements and research of pharmaceutical companies who stand to gain tens (hundreds?) of billions from vaccines+boosters, when we know that these same companies have been repeatedly sued in the past for dangerous/defective medications (and vaccines) as well as deliberately sociopathic business practices? We are talking about a massive conflict of interest from parties which have repeatedly demonstrated dishonesty in the past.

And then with respect to VAERS self reporting, the average person has been convinced that the vaccine is safe and is not likely to connect strange symptoms weeks after vaccination with the vaccine, if they even know about VAERS or the European equivalent. There's far too much uncertainty in the positive data to support such a rigid social orthodoxy around expression of negative sentiment toward the vaccine.

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#137

Post by tguvot » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 9:12 PM UTC

noetic_techy wrote: post #110

The problem is that the perception of public trust is eroding significantly the more we learn and the more fervent the mandates become. We pulled the swine flu vaccine for way less back in 2010, I think it was 12 cases of GBS only! The fact that I know of people who have either had mycarditis AND clots tells me the rate is much higher then reported by VAERS. The reason damn near everyone except for adamant anti-vax h…

>And yet we think we got this mRNA/Adenovirus vector formula right on the first try times 3 different brands with 2 years of reduced trials?

Actually mRNA vaccines/tech been in development and trials for a long time (decades). What was done in last year is to encode specific mRNA and trial it. Not the entire "envelope".

Nice historical overview: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02483-w

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#138

Post by packetlost » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 9:15 PM UTC

Denvercoder9 wrote: post #101

gorwell wrote: post #59

A lot of comments here asking for specific numbers and making comparisons to other risks. That's exactly how one should be looking at this. What I don't understand is why people don't apply this same critical thought process to the risks of Covid? For example, do you know what the risk of hospitalization from Covid is when unvaccinated? If you said >50%, you would be in good company. It's the most common answer. But…

> For example, do you know what the risk of hospitalization from Covid is when unvaccinated? > Risk numbers are totally useless when not stating the time over which the risk is incurred. A 1% lifetime risk is very different from a 1% daily risk. For example, the 0.89% population hospitalization rate in the last 1.5 years for the unvaccinated from the article you linked corresponds to a 38% chance of hospitalization o…

But that risk level of catching COVID is more or less a 1-time event. Once you've caught it and recovered (or gotten vaccinated) it's no longer a novel virus to your immune system and subsequent infections have an even lower risk for the vast majority of people. The real problem is when everyone in that 1% of hospitalizations catches it all at once, because we don't have nearly enough hospital beds to treat even a fraction of that many people.

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#139

Post by timothycrosley » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 9:15 PM UTC

iratewizard wrote: post #131

noetic_techy wrote: post #110

The problem is that the perception of public trust is eroding significantly the more we learn and the more fervent the mandates become. We pulled the swine flu vaccine for way less back in 2010, I think it was 12 cases of GBS only! The fact that I know of people who have either had mycarditis AND clots tells me the rate is much higher then reported by VAERS. The reason damn near everyone except for adamant anti-vax h…

Here's my vaccine anecdata. My wife and I are at the age when everyone we know is starting to have kids. My wife and I got pregnant on the first try, and 3 of her other friends had similar easy success. All 4 unvaccinated. On the vaccinated side of her friends there are two miscarriages, one stillbirth, one who has been trying since June, one trying much longer than that, and one that we think has been trying for a w…

While we are sharing meaningless anecdotes, almost everyone I know (since I live in Seattle) has been vaccinated. No one has reported any issues, a couple have since successfully had a child. None have even gotten a breakthrough infection of covid. Among friends I know from back east, who haven't gotten vaccinated, one had just turned 30, only health issue was obesity. He died. One was 35, best shape of any of my friends, was in ICU for 7 days with double pneumonia. And one miscarriage.

But hey, the good thing is, we also have data. And the data, shows no correlation between vaccination and these problems you're referring to, and yet a VERY HIGH correlation (and some good reasons to say causation) between getting covid and having these issues.

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#140

Post by zehnfischer » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 9:15 PM UTC

gorwell wrote: post #59

A lot of comments here asking for specific numbers and making comparisons to other risks. That's exactly how one should be looking at this. What I don't understand is why people don't apply this same critical thought process to the risks of Covid? For example, do you know what the risk of hospitalization from Covid is when unvaccinated? If you said >50%, you would be in good company. It's the most common answer. But…

There is actually a defined measure for the risk that may lead to an early death: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micromort