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Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

reuters.com

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Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#81

Post by mahogany »

gorwell wrote: post #59

A lot of comments here asking for specific numbers and making comparisons to other risks. That's exactly how one should be looking at this. What I don't understand is why people don't apply this same critical thought process to the risks of Covid? For example, do you know what the risk of hospitalization from Covid is when unvaccinated? If you said >50%, you would be in good company. It's the most common answer. But…

I think I'm missing your point. This article is talking about the relative risk of developing myocarditis, but you are talking about the risk of hospitalization from COVID. Wouldn't the correct comparison be to look at the risk of myocarditis after catching COVID? Or going the other way, shouldn't we be comparing the risk of hospitalization due to COVID (if unvaccinated) to that of hospitalization after receiving the vaccine?

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#82

Post by Delk »

mikeyouse wrote: post #17
ceejayoz wrote: post #2

> "A Nordic study involving Finland, Sweden, Norway and Denmark found that men under the age of 30 who received Moderna Spikevax had a slightly higher risk than others of developing myocarditis," he said. I find it frustrating that we’re still not putting numbers on statements like this in news articles. How slight?

The study is preliminary - but they're being cautious and recommending young men switch to the Pfizer vaccine since the risk of myocarditis is lower. But just so people don't get the wrong idea, they're finding that the risk of myocarditis in young men who've actually caught Covid is something like 6x more likely than in those who received the vaccine: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.23.21260998v... S…

> So if you're a young male, the correct response to avoiding myocarditis (among all of the other downsides that come with actually catching Covid) is to get vaccinated with the Pfizer or J&J shots.

This is probably also the reason the health authorities stopped recommending the Moderna vaccine for that demographic. Since the Pfizer vaccine is available, and AFAIK it's not in short supply, it's pretty much just a question of which vaccine to use for that demographic.

When I got the second (Pfizer) shot, I was also given a leaflet saying that extreme physical exertion should be avoided for a few days afterwards as that might increase the risk of myocarditis.

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#83

Post by summerlight »

gorwell wrote: post #59

A lot of comments here asking for specific numbers and making comparisons to other risks. That's exactly how one should be looking at this. What I don't understand is why people don't apply this same critical thought process to the risks of Covid? For example, do you know what the risk of hospitalization from Covid is when unvaccinated? If you said >50%, you would be in good company. It's the most common answer. But…

> But what's the actual risk? > Where did you get that number? As of Sep 29, 2021, US reported 43,289,203 cases where 3,047,033 of them are hospitalized, including vaccinated. This is nowhere close to <1%. I'm pretty sure the number could be much higher with saner medical insurance system.

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#84

Post by orf »

yabones wrote: post #75
orf wrote: post #27

~2.7 cases of myocarditis per 100k. Deadly car crashes in the US is about 11 deaths per 100k (between 3.3 and 25 when looking at states directly, 18.2 worldwide average). That's not even counting indirect deaths caused by car fumes. So to the person posting the same thing from new accounts about vaccines being a great risk to yourself, I hope you take driving and crossing the road as seriously as you take getting vac…

The rate might be higher, but the cluster effect is completely different. If you're in traffic, the only people you can "spread" a car accident to are the other cars around you. But with infectious disease, you have a chance of spreading it to everybody you contact, all day every day. You can't sit near somebody on the bus who transmits car accidents to you. Nor can you get in a car accident because your child caught…

Sure, I agree, but I was referring to 2.7 cases of myocarditis per 100k after taking the vaccine. The cluster effect is still different but not as wildly different as comparing rates of COVID per capita to car crashes.

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#85

Post by s5300 »

sergiotapia wrote: post #67
gorwell wrote: post #59

A lot of comments here asking for specific numbers and making comparisons to other risks. That's exactly how one should be looking at this. What I don't understand is why people don't apply this same critical thought process to the risks of Covid? For example, do you know what the risk of hospitalization from Covid is when unvaccinated? If you said >50%, you would be in good company. It's the most common answer. But…

It's heretical to say such things and "anti-science" as branded by the media. The fact that California now wants kids to get the vaccine is bonkers to me. Kids don't even feel this shit if they catch it. Pharmaceutical companies must be paying big bucks to the politicians in that state.

If kids "don't even feel this shit if they catch it"

Why have pediatric ICU beds been near or at capacity and care as a whole on the brink of failure from months of completely fucked working conditions for the doctors and nurses?

Along with other kids not dealing with COVID having life saving medical procedures/treatments indefinitely delayed until beds are back down below a certain fill for some amount of time? I've personally had to see effects this in my extended family.

Seriously - what is wrong with you? What makes you have to say things/come to conclusions like this when you're very clearly factually incorrect?

https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/coronavirus/pediatric-hospital-b...

https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/patient-flow/number-of...

https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210816/u-s-reports-record-...

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/kids-sick-covid-are-fil...

https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/24/health/covid-hospitalizations...

https://www.baltimoresun.com/coronavirus/bs-md-pediatric-cov...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/09/02/picu-hosp...

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#86

Post by ImaCake »

Synaesthesia wrote: post #73
gorwell wrote: post #59

A lot of comments here asking for specific numbers and making comparisons to other risks. That's exactly how one should be looking at this. What I don't understand is why people don't apply this same critical thought process to the risks of Covid? For example, do you know what the risk of hospitalization from Covid is when unvaccinated? If you said >50%, you would be in good company. It's the most common answer. But…

Covid has a death rate of around 2% globally. Not sure where you are getting your <1% chance of being hospitalized from.

The parent comment is valuable, but the numbers do seem wrong. I think it is part of the argument for ending strict lockdowns once vaccination rates are high.

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#87

Post by gfodor »

Synaesthesia wrote: post #73
gorwell wrote: post #59

A lot of comments here asking for specific numbers and making comparisons to other risks. That's exactly how one should be looking at this. What I don't understand is why people don't apply this same critical thought process to the risks of Covid? For example, do you know what the risk of hospitalization from Covid is when unvaccinated? If you said >50%, you would be in good company. It's the most common answer. But…

Covid has a death rate of around 2% globally. Not sure where you are getting your <1% chance of being hospitalized from.

Death rate is highly misleading given the skew of outcomes based on a few factors we have known for a long time now such as age.

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#88

Post by ceejayoz »

sergiotapia wrote: post #67
gorwell wrote: post #59

A lot of comments here asking for specific numbers and making comparisons to other risks. That's exactly how one should be looking at this. What I don't understand is why people don't apply this same critical thought process to the risks of Covid? For example, do you know what the risk of hospitalization from Covid is when unvaccinated? If you said >50%, you would be in good company. It's the most common answer. But…

It's heretical to say such things and "anti-science" as branded by the media. The fact that California now wants kids to get the vaccine is bonkers to me. Kids don't even feel this shit if they catch it. Pharmaceutical companies must be paying big bucks to the politicians in that state.

> Kids don't even feel this shit if they catch it.

In general, sure, but that's a bit like arguing people should be able to drive drunk because drunks are more likely to survive a car accident.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/podcast/episode/odds-favo...

> A retrospective study of nearly 8,000 trauma patients found that seven percent of people who came in sober died of their injuries, while those who were hurt while drunk only died one percent of the time. A positive blood alcohol level seemed to increase the likelihood of survival, even after the researchers took into account the age of the patient and the severity of the injury. Trauma patients who came in to the hospital drunk were discharged sooner, too.

The impact on others can be significant, and important.

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#89

Post by __blockcipher__ »

nicoburns wrote: post #30
mikeyouse wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The study is preliminary - but they're being cautious and recommending young men switch to the Pfizer vaccine since the risk of myocarditis is lower. But just so people don't get the wrong idea, they're finding that the risk of myocarditis in young men who've actually caught Covid is something like 6x more likely than in those who received the vaccine: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.23.21260998v... S…

As a young male who got myocarditis from both covid and the vaccine, the other thing that's worth knowing that I wish I'd known earlier: if you do get it, then the best thing to do to prevent long-term damage is to avoid exercise completely (potentially for 6 months to a year, or until you've been cleared by a doctor).

Just out of curiosity, did you get COVID first and then decided to get the vaccine later on? Or was it the other way around? I'm guessing the former - I've had friends who had COVID and their doctors still advised them to get the vaccine - and find it quite troubling if so. We've known for so long now how robust natural immunity is - and before we "knew for sure" any sane person's priors would still assume natural immunity works the way it does for any other respiratory pathogen - yet there was a concerted institutional/media push to act as if immunity literally didn't exist, or the more subtle form that immunity might exist but that vaccine immunity is "better".

Not that it's super relevant but the friends I mentioned were mid 20's and in fine health, no weird immune disorders or anything, so the fact that their doc advised the vaccine was frankly just negligence in my book.

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#90

Post by tomp »

542458 wrote: post #24
tomp wrote: post #20

In 6 months we've gone from "vaccines are 100% safe and well tested and there's no chance of long-term side effects whatsoever" to 3 out of 4 "main" vaccines being not recommended for different groups of people. Great for science, not so great for trust in public officials & experts.

I feel you’re taking the wrong message away here - the countries in question have more than enough doses, and can pick and choose between the vaccines. None of the vaccines are more dangerous than covid itself, but the government is recommending that (since they have an adequate supply) their people shouldn’t bother with the ones that are potentially extremely marginally more risky. If the “best” vaccine didn’t exist…

There's a lot of nuance that you're not taking into account. For example, previously infected benefit minimally from getting vaccinated (they're already better protected than non-infected but vaccinated individuals). The risks of covid are strongly correlated with age and healthiness, as are risks of vaccines (e.g. affects particularly young men). There's many variables that individuals can take into account when deciding what to do.

Note that I'm mainly criticising anti-scientific propaganda sold as science, and forced vaccinations, not vaccination itself (in general or specifically for COVID).

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