Bitcoin is a Ponzi • Hacker News Board

Re: Bitcoin is a Ponzi

#241

Post by hanniabu » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 4:55 AM UTC

lpa22 wrote: post #11

> They generally invest in gold as a hedge -- a "store of value" -- that they hope will retain its value in case other assets go sour. I strongly believe bitcoin will be the new gold one day, if it doesn't pan out as a currency. It sounds insane, but I actually believe the Winklevoss twins when they say Elon and SpaceX will be able to mine gold on asteroids within the next 20 years, which would crash the price of gol…

Within 20 years Bitcoin will be having a security crisis since they'll have gone through a few block halvings yet their fee revenue isn't growing.

Re: Bitcoin is a Ponzi

#242

Post by stale2002 » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 4:55 AM UTC

qaq wrote: post #204

glenvdb wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the wrench technique will always ultimately win. https://xkcd.com/538/ But they have to know someone holds it in the first place. You can walk around with a seed phrase in your head and no one would know.

well you had to have something of value that you had to trade for bitcoin. Also in oppressive regimes the act of attempting to leave the country already makes you a suspect.

> the act of attempting to leave the country

They aren't going to immediately execute everyone who is crossing the border. Even in authoritarian regimes, some people may be able to leave, and borders are not completely shutdown.

And in that situation, for those people, it is useful to be able to carry money, in a way where they do not know that you have it.

Re: Bitcoin is a Ponzi

#243

Post by adolph » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 4:55 AM UTC

Kranar wrote: post #119

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The vast majority of equities by value are not penny stocks or meme stocks.

The average P/E ratio of U.S. stocks is 38, meaning if the value of a stock really is primarily based on its ability to produce an external source of revenue, it would take 38 years for an investor to recoup the cost of a share of a company. When you adjust for 2% inflation, it would take 117 years for someone to recoup the cost. Since that exceeds the lifespan of well over 99% of the population, it must follow that…

> if the value of a stock really is primarily based on its ability to produce an external source of revenue, it would take 38 years for an investor to recoup the cost of a share of a company

Since a minority of stocks return a dividend, then the holder of said stock likely never sees a cent of company earnings. Time duration to recoup cost of stock by P/E is NaN.

The vast majority of gains from the stock market have to do with inability to invest in new ideas (on both supply and demand side).

https://www.quora.com/What-percentage-of-publicly-traded-com...

Re: Bitcoin is a Ponzi

#244

Post by sb057 » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 4:56 AM UTC

amin wrote: post #30

Bilal_io wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does the USD have external revenue? Is so, what is it?

People who have US dollars, nearly always use it as a currency (a medium of exchange), not as investment.

US Dollars would be a wise investment if the supply was fixed but also continued being used as a medium of exchange.

Re: Bitcoin is a Ponzi

#245

Post by CryptoJunky1122 » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 4:56 AM UTC

Bitcoin is a ponzi

Bitcoin is fraud

Bitcoin is a bubble

Bitcoin is OpenSource

Re: Bitcoin is a Ponzi

#246

Post by drdeca » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 4:56 AM UTC

baby wrote: post #145

yunohn wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don’t need data to see plainly that the vast majority of goods are obtained with fiat. As such, someone selling goods for crypto has no choice but to use fiat as well.

I really don’t get your distinction between fiat and crypto

fiat here means (roughly) government issued, I think

Re: Bitcoin is a Ponzi

#247

Post by hanniabu » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 4:56 AM UTC

amin wrote: post #8

In a nutshell: A ponzi scheme has no external revenue, instead the payoffs come from new investors. This is the case when investing in Bitcoin.

What's their reasoning for calling Ethereum a ponzi then?

Re: Bitcoin is a Ponzi

#248

Post by chasebank » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 4:56 AM UTC

Bilal_io wrote: post #21

amin wrote: post #8

In a nutshell: A ponzi scheme has no external revenue, instead the payoffs come from new investors. This is the case when investing in Bitcoin.

Does the USD have external revenue? Is so, what is it?

No but the USD is also inflationary, not deflationary. I don’t understand the comparison.

Re: Bitcoin is a Ponzi

#249

Post by lalaland1125 » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 4:56 AM UTC

glenvdb wrote: post #51

A lot of the "Common Objections" relate to the REASONS people choose to own Bitcoin and how those cases make it a Ponzi. There are many different reasons to own Bitcoin, however the author seems to only view it through the lens of someone living in a wealthy and developed country with financial stability. The properties of it being difficult/impossible to confiscate and its privacy make it valuable in oppressive regi…

The fees for Bitcoin are way too high to make sense for citizens in poor authoritarian counties.

The average transaction fee during slow periods is about $5 and it jumps to $20 whenever there is load on the network.

And the lightning network is a poor solution to this because the LN requires a lot of capital to fund channels, something poor people explicitly don't have.

Finally, the fact that Bitcoin proponents have to point to poor authoritarian countries to find legitimate usecases is telling in and of itself. It's basically a blunt admission that the technology is mostly useless in the US.

Re: Bitcoin is a Ponzi

#250

Post by MelonTree » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 4:57 AM UTC

justusw wrote: post #207

MelonTree wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I got involved in bitcoin after being blackballed from the (US) financial world while for 2-3 months while I was "investigated" in the most dystopianly opaque way possible. One day I lost the ability to transact. A few months later I got it back. Had it not been for good friends who could cover my expenses, I could have easily ended up homeless. And the most shocking part of it all, was that I was merely collateral d…

That sounds absolutely terrible. Were you ever able to take legal recourse?

No, not at all. During my asset freeze, I considered trying to take action against my bank to force something to actually happen and facts to come to light. But I also had access to no money, and and my time was better spent working some cash jobs so I didn't have to lean so much on my friends. And then once my assets were unfrozen, I don't think I really have much grounds for recourse..