Bitcoin is a Ponzi • Hacker News Board

Re: Bitcoin is a Ponzi

#201

Post by dybber » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 4:47 AM UTC

hanniabu wrote: post #154

muglug wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A very very minute percentage of bitcoin is used in transactions. The vast bulk of it is seen by its users as an investment. And historically there have been Ponzi schemes that allowed people to cash out before the scheme fell apart — but it was always a small minority cashing out.

So no different than gold?

https://www.usfunds.com/slideshows/the-many-uses-of-gold/

Go to Coinbase and try to figure out how to use Bitcoin to buy something with. All they talk about is Bitcoin as an investment.

A currency can’t be an investment as the expectation that it will rise in value undermines the main quality of a currency, which is to maintain a stable value, so it can be used as intermediary.

Re: Bitcoin is a Ponzi

#202

Post by shaklee3 » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 4:47 AM UTC

Zamicol wrote: post #109

Jorge Stolfi has been a bitcoin doomsayer for years. The author published these in 2014: https://ic.unicamp.br/~stolfi/bitcoin/bitcoin-beggar-1024.pn... https://ic.unicamp.br/~stolfi/bitcoin/2014-03-02-ShortHistor... Bitcoin ended 2014 around $378. I think it's proved it's staying power. Let's move on.

Staying power has nothing to do with what the article is saying. Casinos also have staying power, but they're 100% gambling.

Re: Bitcoin is a Ponzi

#203

Post by BrianHenryIE » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 4:47 AM UTC

amin wrote: post #187

BrianHenryIE wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Commerce.

What percentage of people who bought bitcoin today, bought it with the intent of making normal commerce-related transactions?

I made a sibling comment where I said a company I work for accepts Bitcoin and ships orders once confirmed.

So, in the past month, the customers who paid via Bitcoin... presumably bought it with the intent of making normal commerce-related transactions.

Re: Bitcoin is a Ponzi

#204

Post by qaq » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 4:47 AM UTC

glenvdb wrote: post #172

qaq wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Generally people participating in a Ponzi scheme do not view it as such. The tactics deployed by truly oppressive regimes make anything easy to confiscate including bitcoin.

Yes, the wrench technique will always ultimately win. https://xkcd.com/538/ But they have to know someone holds it in the first place. You can walk around with a seed phrase in your head and no one would know.

well you had to have something of value that you had to trade for bitcoin. Also in oppressive regimes the act of attempting to leave the country already makes you a suspect.

Re: Bitcoin is a Ponzi

#205

Post by anonporridge » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 4:47 AM UTC

jschwartzi wrote: post #149

dosenbrot wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about the stock market? Everyone I know that invested in stocks did so hoping to trade it back later on for more fiat than they paid.

Well the idea that stocks must go up is a kind of scheme in itself. The whole financialization of our economy is based on constant growth. So you could argue that it’s a Ponzi scheme as well. Our children will likely be caught holding the bag.

You could argue that civilization itself is a Ponzi scheme.

One day, there will be a final generation left holding the bag.

Re: Bitcoin is a Ponzi

#206

Post by rebuilder » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 4:47 AM UTC

arthurcolle wrote: post #50

Osmose wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it's not about cashing out then why is the primary hype mechanism talking about the dollar-equivalent value of anything crypto related? Why does it matter if an NFT was sold for $300k worth of ether?

Blame financial news media, things like Fortune magazine's list of new crypto billionaires. The author of this blog post's claim that 99.99% of people in crypto are only participating because of expectations of future profit is unsourced and a fiction that he has created based on preconceived notions. Don't participate if you don't want - I like participating in a system that isn't being tracked by agencies especiall…

Stolfi has been around the crypto scene a long time, long enough to have gotten a pretty good idea of what motivates people.

The news media did not create the gold rush mentality around crypto, it has been there almost from the beginning. Go and read the bitcointalk forums for evidence, if you want.

Re: Bitcoin is a Ponzi

#207

Post by justusw » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 4:47 AM UTC

MelonTree wrote: post #161

glenvdb wrote: post #51

A lot of the "Common Objections" relate to the REASONS people choose to own Bitcoin and how those cases make it a Ponzi. There are many different reasons to own Bitcoin, however the author seems to only view it through the lens of someone living in a wealthy and developed country with financial stability. The properties of it being difficult/impossible to confiscate and its privacy make it valuable in oppressive regi…

I got involved in bitcoin after being blackballed from the (US) financial world while for 2-3 months while I was "investigated" in the most dystopianly opaque way possible. One day I lost the ability to transact. A few months later I got it back. Had it not been for good friends who could cover my expenses, I could have easily ended up homeless. And the most shocking part of it all, was that I was merely collateral d…

That sounds absolutely terrible. Were you ever able to take legal recourse?

Re: Bitcoin is a Ponzi

#208

Post by SantalBlush » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 4:48 AM UTC

nightski wrote: post #183

People do not invest in USD because they expect a gain? Anyone holding cash is doing exactly this. Because the only rational reason to hold USD instead of spending it or converting it to some other asset/investment is because you think it's value is going to either hold or grow more than other options. If people expected no gain in USD (or inflation) then they would not hold USD and instead choose assets or other inv…

This isn't correct. People hold cash for its liquidity. They generally expect USD to lose a small amount of its value over short periods of time, and that is the price one pays for keeping a portion of one's assets liquid.

Re: Bitcoin is a Ponzi

#209

Post by MelonTree » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 4:48 AM UTC

So basically he believes bitcoin is a ponzi because bitcoin investors "expect good profits" yet also believes "few if any gold investors have expectations of profits".

I laughed a little, but then I realized he was serious.

Re: Bitcoin is a Ponzi

#210

Post by mikewarot » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 4:48 AM UTC

nightski wrote: post #183

People do not invest in USD because they expect a gain? Anyone holding cash is doing exactly this. Because the only rational reason to hold USD instead of spending it or converting it to some other asset/investment is because you think it's value is going to either hold or grow more than other options. If people expected no gain in USD (or inflation) then they would not hold USD and instead choose assets or other inv…

The reason to hold USD is that it is one of the most accepted forms of payment around, and the cost/benefit of any other way to store wealth is likely to eat more than the slow rot of inflation.