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Investigators say they've finally identified the Zodiac Killer

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Re: Investigators say they've finally identified the Zodiac Killer

#101

Post by elliekelly »

andrewzah wrote: post #73
bena wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What they meant is wrong. I can consult Merriam Webster, which agrees with what I said. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/circumstantial%20... Or Britannica https://www.britannica.com/topic/circumstantial-evidence Or Cornell https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/circumstantial_evidence Or basically any single law firm or courthouse https://www.shouselaw.com/ca/defense/legal-defenses/circumst... https://www.ojp.gov…

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/circumstantial 1. belonging to, consisting in, or dependent on circumstances 2. pertinent but not essential : incidental The original comment used the word correctly. Because dictionaries describe how people actually speak, not prescribe rules on how to use words. That's why they get updated every so often as word usages change.

But this is a word that has a technical meaning and a colloquial meaning. It doesn’t make sense to apply the colloquial definition when a term is being used in the context of a technical discussion.

In other words, the appropriate definition of a term of art is... circumstantial. ;)

Re: Investigators say they've finally identified the Zodiac Killer

#102

Post by gumby »

watertom wrote: post #61
gumby wrote: post #49

This case didn’t only inspire documentaries but also inspired the song “Dire Wolf” by the Grateful Dead.

The Zodiac didn't inspire the song, the Hound of the Baskerville's inspired the song. "So the Zodiac actually emerged some months after the song was finished" Story behind the song "Dire Wolf" http://deadessays.blogspot.com/2012/10/dire-wolf-1969.html

The full quotation from the page you linked to is,

“So the Zodiac actually emerged some months after the song was finished – but, as we’ll see, Garcia immediately made the connection between the killer and the song in live shows that October, when Zodiac frenzy gripped San Francisco. (He was recording pedal steel in the studio for CS&N on October 24; and on October 26 he mentions the Zodiac and “paranoid fantasies” onstage; so his memory of driving home in fear seems to be quite literal.)”

Is a song, especially a Dead song, finished when the pen leaves the paper?

Re: Investigators say they've finally identified the Zodiac Killer

#103

Post by polynomial »

mauz wrote: post #9

Looking at the press release [1], it still feels relatively circumstantial to me. Not sure that we can deem the Zodiac Killer to be fully identified yet. It's definitely not nearly as cut and dry as when they identified the Golden State killer. [1]: https://secureservercdn.net/166.62.114.250/g9q.07b.myftpuplo...

This is exactly why I want to see more info about the cipher they solved (that and my innate interest in ciphers.) The claim is that when you remove all the letters of his full name, there is a 2nd message hidden there.

This is exactly the sort of thing I would immensely like to get ahold of and apply some stochastic models to, in addition to just knowing more of the specifics.

In any case, if they have truly deciphered a message that implicates him, it would be significantly more than circumstantial.

What really pains me is the paucity of substantial information backing up the claim, that and the story seems to have been broken by TMZ, ugh.

Re: Investigators say they've finally identified the Zodiac Killer

#104

Post by elliekelly »

jfrunyon wrote: post #83
bena wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People glommed onto the idea of circumstantial meaning weak from police and legal procedurals. And since we are talking about evidence, we should be using it within the context of evidence. And in that context, some or all of the evidence being circumstantial has no bearing on whether or not it is good evidence. This isn't a matter of "other meanings [being] derived from the same root". There is no root. It's a misap…

> good evidence > literally hearsay

Hearsay evidence can be good evidence, too.

Re: Investigators say they've finally identified the Zodiac Killer

#105

Post by polynomial »

aquova wrote: post #33

So two new pieces of evidence are offered up by this article, firstly that Zodiac was identified by several witnesses as having a forehead scar, including being drawn on the famous sketch of him, which matches a scar Poste had at the time. Secondly, some sort of new solution to the cipher is possible by omitting Poste's full name in some way. As exciting as it would be, I always take these claims about famous cases b…

Apparently there was also a paint-splattered watch recovered at the Bates killing scene (tied to ZK in 1975 by FBI) and he spent decades as a house painter. There was also a recovered boot print from that scene that apparently was a match to him.

I guess we'll all have to wait for all the true crime podcasts to spill the rest of the beans.

Re: Investigators say they've finally identified the Zodiac Killer

#106

Post by lazide »

oh_sigh wrote: post #10

What are the ethics of potentially identifying deceased people as baddies? Unless there is DNA evidence which remains(which I doubt), or they find incontrovertible evidence in his home or something like that(I also doubt), this is just a guess that will drastically affect his probably otherwise-normal family whether the allegations are true or not.

Near as I can tell, as long as they don’t have an estate to sue you it’s a-ok (based on current media cycles anyway). Only mostly sarcastic.

Re: Investigators say they've finally identified the Zodiac Killer

#107

Post by ncmncm »

irrational wrote: post #66

Oh good, Ted "Cancun" Cruz will finally be put into prison. In all seriousness, my daughter in college was in a psychology class where they were talking about serial killers. The Zodiac killer came up and a guy in the class said, in all seriousness, "Isn't Ted Cruz the Zodiac killer?"

I, personally, know of no hard evidence that could conclusively prove that.

Re: Investigators say they've finally identified the Zodiac Killer

#108

Post by exporectomy »

lqet wrote: post #26
Ansil849 wrote: post #8

I feel like at least twice a year, there is some story like "Zodiac Killer Finally Identified" or "DB Cooper Finally Found". And behind these stories is usually just one person or group of people who are presenting their pet theory (which highlighted all facts supporting it, and conveniently brushes aside all facts which don't) and have savy media contacts so are able to get media exposure to help promote what's freq…

I find this quite convincing: > In one note, the letters of Poste's full name were removed to reveal an alternate message, [Jen Bucholtz, a former Army counterintelligence agent] told Fox News. > "So you've got to know Gary's full name in order to decipher these anagrams," Bucholtz said. "I just don't think there's any other way anybody would have figured it out."

Stats or it didn't happen. That kind of seemingly incredible coincidence can sometimes just be the mind playing tricks on people who are unaware of how many ways a similar result could have occurred by chance.

Re: Investigators say they've finally identified the Zodiac Killer

#109

Post by boogies »

ncmncm wrote: post #98

Now that we have maybe identified somebody who killed, what, 37 people?, let's start identifying individuals responsible for millions of more horrendous deaths, often drawn out over months of suffering, and maybe try to stop them. The guys who first put lead in gasoline are long dead already. There were people who fought getting it out of the gasoline, and they are mostly dead, by now, too. Likewise, leaded paint. Th…

> Robert Lustig videos on Youtube are a great way to start learning about this.

Or off YT:

https://videos.lukesmith.xyz/w/feioCyaQEZ1ogHK1oNJM4K

> Thus, the people taking fiber out of and putting sugar into everything are the biggest current mass killers. Stringing them up may be an over-reaction. Maybe convicting them would be, too? Anyway stopping them seems like a good idea. Think about them next time the news is full of somebody killing a dozen people. Is a dozen bad, but a million A-OK?

IMO simply not compelling millions of people to pay them for it would be a good start. Defund all the agencies that promote poison, whether by subsidizing corn syrup, villianizing natural saturated fats to sell trans fats and sugar, or conspiring with drug companies and corrupt researchers to sell addictive substances (as discussed this week: https://dynomight.net/alcohol-trial/).

Re: Investigators say they've finally identified the Zodiac Killer

#110

Post by tacocataco »

Ansil849 wrote: post #65
pwinnski wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The FBI says it is related, the local PD says it is not, and to ask the FBI. The local PD is also refusing to do DNA tests which would resolve the issue.

> The local PD is also refusing to do DNA tests which would resolve the issue. Yeah, mean ol' law enforcement, refusing to do DNA tests for any crank mystery squad solving team that demands them.

If the group wants to incurr the costs what does it matter?
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