Andrew Yang Founds the Forward Party • Hacker News Board

Re: Andrew Yang Founds the Forward Party

#291

Post by southerntofu » Wed, Oct 06, 2021, 10:32 AM UTC

hef19898 wrote: post #183

disneygibson wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany doesn’t exactly have a good record when it comes to new governments. Nor does France. Very odd to use them as positive examples. As flawed as the American government may be, the Constitution is still a more solid foundation than pretty much anything that has come out of Europe since.

Well, the 5th French Republic is going well since the 50s, isn't it? As is the post-war BRD in Germany. Both used to have an Emperor at some point, Italy went from Kingdom to Facist regime to democracy. So yes, if the situation changes you can change your government form. Basing 21st Century politics on something written in the 18th century is... weird. Especially as it is more the interpretation of what the authors…

> the 5th French Republic is going well since the 50s, isn't it?

Is it going well, though? There's never been so much inequality, industrial pollution is spreading everywhere (is there even a single river left you can drink in France?!), political corruption has been adopted as governing principle (see also: Jacques Foccart and the Françafrique scandals), law enforcement is plagued by nazism (French police was never denazified after WWII), and the social services De Gaulle was forced (by popular power) to implement have either been dismantled or rendered painful for both workers and users (healthcare/education/housing).

> Basing 21st Century politics on something written in the 18th century is... weird.

I agree in principle, but it's important to realize that the most important social issues we face today (including depletion of resources and pollution) have been fought against for centuries. We have a lot of lessons to learn from the past.

Re: Andrew Yang Founds the Forward Party

#292

Post by yodsanklai » Wed, Oct 06, 2021, 10:36 AM UTC

Karto wrote: post #158

The top line, "Not Left. Not Right. Forward." kind of reminds me of Macron's "En Marche" ("Let's Go") that took over France in a storm, taking over the presidency AND the parliament only one year after its foundation, with very few previously known political figures in its ranks. The whole thing looked like doing management rather than politics, and offered an alternative to fed-up voters who didn't dare turn to the…

Macron (a banker) was strongly supported by mainstream medias. And when people realized he was a potential winner, many politicians from left and right started to rally him.

Re: Andrew Yang Founds the Forward Party

#293

Post by nemo44x » Wed, Oct 06, 2021, 10:36 AM UTC

jagrsw wrote: post #159

".. because our founding fathers .." It's interesting to see that all sides of political dispute in US, even parties (like this one) which want to cater to the seemingly more rational and less emotional part of the populace use the argument of "the founding fathers wanted it this way, so... that must be the correct way of doing things forever".

The USA is an extremely different country than when founded and the founders wouldn’t recognize it today.

We don’t number our republics but it’s clear they have taken dramatic changes at various times from Hamilton (Federalism) to Lincoln to New Deal Roosevelt, each era transforming American politics and the role the government plays in people’s lives.

We share the founding myth of the country (this is important - you need a shared foundation) but the country has faced dramatic transformation at various times from loose confederation of independent states to global empire with concentrated federal power.

Re: Andrew Yang Founds the Forward Party

#294

Post by netcan » Wed, Oct 06, 2021, 10:38 AM UTC

hef19898 wrote: post #183

disneygibson wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany doesn’t exactly have a good record when it comes to new governments. Nor does France. Very odd to use them as positive examples. As flawed as the American government may be, the Constitution is still a more solid foundation than pretty much anything that has come out of Europe since.

Well, the 5th French Republic is going well since the 50s, isn't it? As is the post-war BRD in Germany. Both used to have an Emperor at some point, Italy went from Kingdom to Facist regime to democracy. So yes, if the situation changes you can change your government form. Basing 21st Century politics on something written in the 18th century is... weird. Especially as it is more the interpretation of what the authors…

It is weird in the context of "modern thought," which is ironic perhaps, but it's not unusual... historically speaking.

Once you have generations of commentary, commentary on commentary, past crisis-resolution precedents, etc.... At this point you have a body of "jurisprudence." This is a lot like jewish torah, or most major schools of islamic jurisprudence. A rich one will contain enough examples, rationalisations and counter rationalisations that a very wide range of arguments can be made within the framework.

We like to think of ourselves as rational and rationalistic. rational principles with rational conclusions. The generation of America's founding fathers, and the French revolutionaries was particularly hubristic in this regard. Peak Enlightenment, rar!

But real life society doesn't work this way. We evolve. We make judgements instinctively, incorporating lots of conflicting anecdotes, principles and half principles. We create exception cases etc. A body of jurisprudence can act as a formal, social version of this. It's like a history of ideas.

Re: Andrew Yang Founds the Forward Party

#295

Post by bradfa » Wed, Oct 06, 2021, 10:41 AM UTC

spyckie2 wrote: post #119

digbybk wrote: post #63

I was excited about Yang’s candidacy in the NYC mayoral election, but it didn’t take very long to see that he was out of his depth. In the end, he didn’t even rank in my top 5 (NYC has ranked choice now). Why does he keep running for top positions? He clearly doesn’t have a record of success as an executive, either in private or public sectors. He seems like a nice guy. If he wants to get into politics, why not start…

I think it's important not to confuse the goal with the action. I don't think he wants to become a politician. He wants to enact political change. These are two very different things. Saying "if he wants to enact political change, why not start as city councillor?" Well... how many democrats or republicans are pushing for change? No one who is born and raised in party lines is pushing for reform; they're doing the op…

What will be interesting, and telling, to watch will be who joins him. If some high profile government people join him in the Forward Party, then Yang doesn't need to be great at management or politics, he just needs to light the fire and find the kindling.

There's enough other higher profile politicians across federal, state, and local politics who don't fully align with either major party today. If even just one of them publicly joins Yang, I think that'll be enough to justify the last few years of his efforts and it will encourage others to join him, too.

Re: Andrew Yang Founds the Forward Party

#296

Post by netcan » Wed, Oct 06, 2021, 10:41 AM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #277

netcan wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think I'd call that Clintonite/Thatcherite. Thatcher was quite confrontational, and also hawkish socially conservative. Not dispositionally centrist, consensus oriented or antipolitical. Blaire is probably the PM you're looking for. That "consensus" happened when the centre left accepted structural changes made by the previous "generation's" new right, Reagan & Thatcher. Economic issues became non-ideological…

> That "consensus" happened when the centre left accepted structural changes made by the previous "generation's" new right No, it didn't, at least not in the US. The neoliberal consensus happenened, in the US, when the center- right faction took over the more left-leaning of the two major parties.

I'm not disputing the US clinton part. I'm disputing the Thatcher part.

Blaire is "the center-right faction taking over the more left-leaning of the two major parties" and succeeding politically in the UK.

Re: Andrew Yang Founds the Forward Party

#297

Post by dane-pgp » Wed, Oct 06, 2021, 10:41 AM UTC

Goety wrote: post #125

I have to disagree with the name 'forward party' during civilizational decline I think different messaging is needed.

"Yesterday we stood on the edge of a terrible abyss, but today we have taken a huge step forwards!"

I think the implication of the party name is actually that America is moving backwards and needs to change direction. Hopefully the new direction is one that puts civilization on a sustainable path.

Re: Andrew Yang Founds the Forward Party

#298

Post by DonHopkins » Wed, Oct 06, 2021, 10:52 AM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #186

nivenkos wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We don't have longevity technology yet though, only "keep you alive whilst you get dementia" technology. I wouldn't want to live over 90, maybe not even over 80 - but we'll see what changes by then. I agree with term limits though, but mainly to ensure that the politicians better represent those working in the economy. So many issues come from politicians effectively being idle landlords - completely divorced from th…

A permanent but senile supreme court is an ideal substrate for permanent government; in 2100 the justices are the same ones from today, all bodies in vats, whose decisions are delegated opaquely to key party donors.

One of those vats will be full of beer.

Re: Andrew Yang Founds the Forward Party

#299

Post by Traster » Wed, Oct 06, 2021, 10:52 AM UTC

spyckie2 wrote: post #119

digbybk wrote: post #63

I was excited about Yang’s candidacy in the NYC mayoral election, but it didn’t take very long to see that he was out of his depth. In the end, he didn’t even rank in my top 5 (NYC has ranked choice now). Why does he keep running for top positions? He clearly doesn’t have a record of success as an executive, either in private or public sectors. He seems like a nice guy. If he wants to get into politics, why not start…

I think it's important not to confuse the goal with the action. I don't think he wants to become a politician. He wants to enact political change. These are two very different things. Saying "if he wants to enact political change, why not start as city councillor?" Well... how many democrats or republicans are pushing for change? No one who is born and raised in party lines is pushing for reform; they're doing the op…

>Well... how many democrats or republicans are pushing for change? No one who is born and raised in party lines is pushing for reform; they're doing the opposite.

This is factually not true. Both major parties have radical wings that have both seen measures of success in the last decade or so. The Republicans have had the tea party movement, and the democrats have the progressive caucus which are likely in the middle of setting an infrastructure budget way beyond the what people previously thought was possible. Obama had a perfectly traditional route into politics and he stood directly against the wars his party had supported 5 years earlier and passed an incredibly ambitious healthcare bill. Bernie Sanders is radical in his positions, has been effective in championing them and changing the debate and he is well within the democratic party.

What Yang is pushing for in terms of policy isn't that much more radical than AOC. What he is pushing for is more radical but arguable way less effective than the incremental changes that Stacey Abrams acheived.

I want to be clear here, I'm not saying there's no value to what Yang is doing. But it's a dis-service to the actual political reality when people pretend like nothing gets done in traditional politics.

Re: Andrew Yang Founds the Forward Party

#300

Post by southerntofu » Wed, Oct 06, 2021, 10:56 AM UTC

cnlevy wrote: post #289

southerntofu wrote: post #280

So their program is focused on managerialism and "progress". I could not see a single line on the homepage about ecology and how industrial capitalism is threatening to destroy our entire planet. But there's arguments for easier taxes and blockchain technology. WHO CARES IF WE'RE ALL GOING TO DIE?! There's "basic income" mentioned but nothing else about social justice and redistribution of the massive wealth the olig…

Your platform has a name: Anarchism. I'm interested to know if there a concrete examples of it in the past where it has worked well (at a country level) ?

There's a few interesting examples in history. You can read about anarcho-syndicalist Spain and the 1936 revolution [0] or the peasant-led Communes (soviets) of Ukraine in 1917 [1], the two most successful anarchist revolutions so far (that actually managed to implement profound changes before being crushed).

More recent examples include the zapatista caracoles in so-called Mexico started with the 1994 uprising [2] and democratic confederalism in Kurdistan since the 2011 arab spring [3]. Although to be fair democratic confederalism is not exactly anarchist, and despite the younger generations of the kurdish revolutionary movement having strong inspiration in anarchism (eg. Murray Bookchin / Emma Goldman), there is still a strong central State in Kurdistan to this day (and being under constant attack from Turkey and ISIS does not help to dismantle it).

It's fair to ask if these two revolutions can be considered anarchist, as they're not labeled as such. However:

- zapatism abides by anarchist principles (such as the people's army EZLN having zero political power/influence, because all power is in the hands of the people) and claims to a movement from the bottom left (anarchist quadrant on the political compass) ; they also have a restorative justice system not based on punishment

- kurdish emancipation struggles have strong authoritarian (marxist-leninist) influence and history, but there's been a push since the 2000s by party leaders to decentralize power, and recommend anarchist readings to all people receiving political education

In both these examples, women are at the forefront of revolution and have various forms of non-mixed (no cis-men) organizing. Democratic confederalism also has non-mixed ethnic/religious assemblies to empower multiculturalism.

[0] Readings: Homage to Catalonia (George Orwell), Free Women of Spain (Martha Ackelsberg) ; Movies: Living the utopia (documentary with subtitles), Land and Freedom, Libertarias

[1] Readings: zines (i don't know books about the Makhnovtchina) ; Movies: The nine lives of Nestor Makhno

[2] Readings: zines (i don't know books about zapatism) ; Movies: Viva Mexico

[3] Readings: La commune du Rojava (not sure if translated), Make Rojava Green Again, Democratic confederalism (Abdullah Öcalan) ; Movies: Notes from a kurdish rebel