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Whistleblower to Congress: Facebook products harm kids and democracy

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Re: Whistleblower to Congress: Facebook products harm kids and democracy

#671

Post by godelski »

sreque wrote: post #664
godelski wrote: post #638

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't entirely true. While the Reps slash some programs they also extend others and extend the executive power. The only difference between them and the Dems is that, as you said, the Dems are open about their power grabs. I do think we have to stop talking as if we criticize one side that it implies we align with the other. We should be criticizing all those that hold power. I believe a major problem we are fac…

It's definitely too simplistic, and we could argue all day over which side is worse, but I think it's hard to argue against the fact that, right now the, left control the levers of power and are the most immediate threat to American liberty and constitutional government. If we are fortunate enough to vote them down to the minority, we can address the next immediate threat?

I'm not sure I buy this. I think you're saying that just because the left has the Presidential power currently. But that's never been absolute power in this country (though what has been worrying is that there's the increase of this power. A centralization/consolidation if you will).

IMO the most immediate threat to the American liberty and constitutional government is that we, the people, cannot acknowledge that those in power are playing the same game regardless of the political isle that they are on. It is a show. I'm not sure who said it first but the quote

> The difference between you and me is smaller than the difference between us and our respective leaders

is an important thing to understand. That's what divide and rule preys on. Thinking that we're different when we aren't. The game can't be fixed until we recognize this.

We're in a thread talking about a whistleblower from Facebook. A whistleblower who is saying that reactionary content drives more engagement and harms the public. There's a special irony in that we're arguing over the same thing but if the government does the same thing or not. I do believe that politicians on both sides of the isle are doing the same thing we're concerned about Facebook doing. That's the biggest and most immediate threat to American liberty.

Re: Whistleblower to Congress: Facebook products harm kids and democracy

#672

Post by fighterpilot »

ch4s3 wrote: post #135
fighterpilot wrote: post #12

The two best ideas I've heard: - Require age verification by law and ban kids from using it. We ban kids from alcohol we should ban them from this. - Require ID verification by law but allow people to use a fake name. Fixes the bots issue and the kid depression issue. The market isn't going to get there by itself because of competition. If insta implements this then they lose market share to snap. So there's a strong…

Both of those proposals would probably have the effect of making it nearly impossible to ever compete against something like instagram, and would cement their existing position. We could probably make some requirements around age, and focus enforcement on the biggest players in the space. However if we require real ID verification, no is going to enter the space ever again and FB/Instagram may well continue to be dom…

Is KYC that expensive? It's a mostly automated process that takes at most 10 seconds of human time per user and has a number of outsourced solutions available. Or the government can provide a solution. Or they can implement these regulations only on social networks with more than X thousand users.

Re: Whistleblower to Congress: Facebook products harm kids and democracy

#673

Post by fighterpilot »

endisneigh wrote: post #16
fighterpilot wrote: post #12

The two best ideas I've heard: - Require age verification by law and ban kids from using it. We ban kids from alcohol we should ban them from this. - Require ID verification by law but allow people to use a fake name. Fixes the bots issue and the kid depression issue. The market isn't going to get there by itself because of competition. If insta implements this then they lose market share to snap. So there's a strong…

How would you prevent kids from just going on some other, new site? What's the distinction between the internet and social media? Ignoring whether or not what you're describing is technically feasible (I don't think it is) - ultimately as long as children can use the internet the issues at hand will exist. Furthermore, why give social media entities more data in the form of government backed authentication?

  "news site"
Because social media is a status and looks competition between peers which is where the depression comes from. If they're just reading news and commenting that's fine. The internet itself isn't the problem, it's specifically social media.

  "Furthermore, why give social media entities more data in the form of government backed authentication?"
Part of the law could be to require an outsourced solution, with a Chinese Wall between them. The solution is only able to relay to the company that the person is a real person and over the age of X. Or a government solution, where the government provides a unique token to each valid person which can be used once per registration, so no ID needs to be given to the companies. Whatever it is, I'm sure a solution can be thought of.

Re: Whistleblower to Congress: Facebook products harm kids and democracy

#674

Post by fighterpilot »

nemo44x wrote: post #107
fighterpilot wrote: post #12

The two best ideas I've heard: - Require age verification by law and ban kids from using it. We ban kids from alcohol we should ban them from this. - Require ID verification by law but allow people to use a fake name. Fixes the bots issue and the kid depression issue. The market isn't going to get there by itself because of competition. If insta implements this then they lose market share to snap. So there's a strong…

> This also isn't negative for free speech as a value Free speech is a right in the USA, not a "value". It isn't something we strive for; it is a basic right. Things like film ratings are not legally biding for example. The industry took it upon themselves to create ratings as guidelines to parents. > - Require age verification by law and ban kids from using it. We ban kids from alcohol we should ban them from this.…

  "Free speech is a right in the USA, not a "value"."
Speech on someone's private platform isn't a right, it's a privilege that they're choosing to extend to you. That's why in this instance, this ID verification law is merely protecting the ethical value and culture of free speech, not the legal right to do so which remains unchanged. It's a shame we don't have separate terms for the legal right of free speech and cultural value of free speech, since it's easy to confuse the two.

  "As for alcohol - purchasing alcohol isn't a protected right and not analogous to speech at all."
I hadn't thought of the angle that banning kids off social media was effectively a government restriction of free speech. Interesting perspective! Any 1A afficianados want to provide commentary here?

Re: Whistleblower to Congress: Facebook products harm kids and democracy

#675

Post by ta20211004_1 »

haswell wrote: post #643
ta20211004_1 wrote: post #634

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And if some of the allegations and concerns are correct, the current trajectory companies like Facebook are taking us on are poised to cause far worse. We've already seen Facebook used to facilitate genocide, and there are very concerning trends that indicate it's impacting how entire societies engage each other. It's forcing increased polarization in politics and resulting in extremist candidates. The Rohingya gen…

> It's _forcing_ increased polarization in politics? Be fair. We all have a choice whether or not to engage with content on Facebook Yes, forcing, and respectfully, no, we do not have that choice, because Facebook decides what you see, not you. And that is the fundamental issue. If I'm a conspiracy theorist and I constantly seek out content that validates my beliefs, that's a me problem. If I'm just an inquisitive pe…

> To be clear, I don't believe Facebook is solely to blame here. What we're seeing is an amplification of human behavior and tribalism that predates the existence of social media. What makes the current climate interesting and problematic is that such tendencies are being exploited and encouraged by algorithms, and the platforms are no longer neutral to the problem.

That seems pretty reasonable. I am sure the Facebook recommendation algorithms can be improved. I would be in favour of more transparency here. Without transparency we simply can't know to what extent Facebook is trying to improve things, or if they even are.

To be clear, I do think recommendation algorithms are useful in content aggregator sites (which Facebook basically is). I just think we'd be better off if we could see what they're doing.

> And we had safe elections prior to 2020 as well. There were no insurrections in the current era here either...until January of 2021. I'd argue that we're just starting to see the 2nd and 3rd order effects of modern social media, and we can't necessarily just look to the past or to make conclusions about the present.

I don't thing this argument is falsifiable. It's totally possible. But I think we'd expect to see this in many countries where Facebook is available if it was a single cause of these kinds of outcomes. And so far that is just not happening.

Re: Whistleblower to Congress: Facebook products harm kids and democracy

#676

Post by fighterpilot »

trutannus wrote: post #22
fighterpilot wrote: post #12

The two best ideas I've heard: - Require age verification by law and ban kids from using it. We ban kids from alcohol we should ban them from this. - Require ID verification by law but allow people to use a fake name. Fixes the bots issue and the kid depression issue. The market isn't going to get there by itself because of competition. If insta implements this then they lose market share to snap. So there's a strong…

> Require ID verification I'll pass on putting my personal ID in the hands of an organization that sells data as a business . No matter how many flimsy laws they put in place to ban selling my PII, you'd have to be born yesterday to think that won't just delay the sale this new treasure-trove of information.

What if the government gives each valid person a unique token that they can use to register once per social media site?

Re: Whistleblower to Congress: Facebook products harm kids and democracy

#677

Post by quotemstr »

streamofdigits wrote: post #658
quotemstr wrote: post #644

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you summarize her policy position? The Wikipedia article doesn't list her specific recommendations. From my point of view, the elite consensus is that there should be some body of "responsible" people that decides what opinions the general public is allowed to express to a broad audience. Any idea control of this kind is totally unacceptable no matter what form it takes.

Reading the book is definitely recommended. A lot of people have an intuitive feeling of how things have gotten out of control but she places the developments in context [0]. She is quite clear that "breaking up" is not a solution as it will merely create a cluster of replicas. She is basically arguing for banning the business model underpinning surveillance capitalism. There are many reviews out there, find one from…

Sorry, I don't have time right now to listen to a half hour podcast. What specific conduct does the author propose making illegal? "Surveillance capitalism" is incisive rhetoric, but it's not specific enough to serve as the basis for law.

Re: Whistleblower to Congress: Facebook products harm kids and democracy

#678

Post by sreque »

godelski wrote: post #671
sreque wrote: post #664

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's definitely too simplistic, and we could argue all day over which side is worse, but I think it's hard to argue against the fact that, right now the, left control the levers of power and are the most immediate threat to American liberty and constitutional government. If we are fortunate enough to vote them down to the minority, we can address the next immediate threat?

I'm not sure I buy this. I think you're saying that just because the left has the Presidential power currently. But that's never been absolute power in this country (though what has been worrying is that there's the increase of this power. A centralization/consolidation if you will). IMO the most immediate threat to the American liberty and constitutional government is that we, the people, cannot acknowledge that tho…

I can respect your viewpoint here. I know my response isn't adding much but I think it's important to recognize respect for a differing belief or opinion.

Re: Whistleblower to Congress: Facebook products harm kids and democracy

#679

Post by fighterpilot »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #390
fighterpilot wrote: post #12

The two best ideas I've heard: - Require age verification by law and ban kids from using it. We ban kids from alcohol we should ban them from this. - Require ID verification by law but allow people to use a fake name. Fixes the bots issue and the kid depression issue. The market isn't going to get there by itself because of competition. If insta implements this then they lose market share to snap. So there's a strong…

I grew up on an internet community that railed against age restrictions for video games and content blockers for children. Bypassing school content blockers was a perennial favorite topic. I have to admit it’s surreal to see proposals like this on some of those same sites that advocated for freedom and deferring to parental choice: > Require age verification by law and ban kids from using it. We ban kids from alcohol…

Video games are a flawed analogy because the evidence that video games are harmful for kids (except in situations of extreme addiction) is far more flimsy than the evidence for social media's widespread harms to kids. If you're for the alcohol age limits but against the same for social media I'd ask why the difference.

Re: Whistleblower to Congress: Facebook products harm kids and democracy

#680

Post by mcguire »

_ivvf wrote: post #660
mcguire wrote: post #652

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" Except what you are saying is not really true. Most conservatives want to reduce government power, not extend it. The left, on the other hand, universally wants to extend government reach. " Well, except for abortion. And official support for Christianity, in various kinds. And, of course, the military, the biggest part of big government and big government power. And keeping the poors and minorities in their places…

> Well, except for abortion The right frame anti-abortion as pro-life. Do you consider murder laws authoritarian? Pro- and anti-abortion arguments are both grounded in morality, but claiming one is more authoritarian than the other is showing willful ignorance as to what the right believes. > And official support for Christianity. There is practically zero scientific evidence backing the transgender movement. Or the…

You wrote, "Most conservatives want to reduce government power, not extend it." Note "government power", not "authoritarianism". Those are two different things, something you seem to understand with "You can have a minimal government with a large military, or an authoritarian government with a small military." However, a large military is almost the definition of "government power".

I would like to note that there is zero scientific evidence that "Wokeness is a terrible state religion, much worse than Christianity ever was." Also, I'm not a Thomas Sowell disciple. I will cheerfully accept the charge of "intelligenstia" (When did being educated and intelligent become a bad thing?) although I note that Thomas Sowell is more of an intelligentsia than I am.

Biden's tax plan: https://taxfoundation.org/american-families-plan/ (Are the top 5% of earners "middle class"?)

Social Security and Medicare: https://www.forbes.com/sites/teresaghilarducci/2018/11/02/re...

"The Republican Party has always been associated with opposition to Social Security...." Oh, hell, just read it---it has the whole history. (The paragraph about Senator McConnell is likely referring to https://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-hiltzik-mccon..., by the way.)

Postal Service: https://www.epi.org/publication/the-war-against-the-postal-s...

"President Trump’s push to privatize the Postal Service and his party’s antipathy toward government partly explain Republicans’ reluctance to provide the same pandemic relief to the Postal Service as it has to airlines and other private companies facing a similar collapse in demand. Privatization is a long-standing goal of conservative think tanks and corporations that stand to gain from weakening or dismantling the Postal Service."

EPA: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/climate-consensus-97...

Oh, c'mon, who hasn't heard more than they strictly need to in order to know that conservatives don't like regulations, even necessary ones?

"As George W. Bush’s former EPA administrator Christine Todd Whitman wrote [...],

"'If his actions continue in the same direction, during Pruitt’s term at the EPA the environment will be threatened instead of protected, and human health endangered instead of preserved, all with no long-term benefit to the economy.'"

OSHA: https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/workplace/osh...

Destroying these and similar government services would, indeed, reduce government power. They're also fairly popular among voters, but that shouldn't stop anyone.

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