Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated • Hacker News Board

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#231

Post by joe_the_user » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 9:12 PM UTC

nprz wrote: post #151

joe_the_user wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a lot of wasteful industries - crypto is a small slice The difference between crypto and things like agriculture or transportation is obvious. People need food and transportation. If crypto was eliminated entirely tomorrow, on average, no one would suffer - some would lose relative wealth but others would gain relative wealth. Unlike conventional financial markets even, it's hard to argue crypto provides an…

What about commercial cruise lines? Do people need to go on cruises? The cruise industry uses over double the emissions of the bitcoin protocol[0]. Furthermore, millions would be affected if bitcoin were to go offline tomorrow. Particularly people living in authoritarian states[1], or people who do not have access to traditional banking services. [0] https://twitter.com/gladstein/status/1414065840157347840?s=2... [1]…

If just mining was taxed, ordinary crypto transactions would be quite possible.

But regardless by allowing transaction outside of state control, crypto may indeed help some hard bitten business people but simultaneously helps a vast array of criminals, from ransomware gangs to corrupt third world officials expatriating bribes and theft.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#232

Post by pradn » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 9:12 PM UTC

arcticbull wrote: post #224

spinny wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Fundamentally it's the antithesis to democracy. Really? A small group of people controlling the money supply is democracy to you?? What do you see as democratic in the fiat money system? > The fundamental political issue with cryptocurrency is now you've created some amorphous group of oligarchs whose power cannot be really removed by traditional means. It's just a regression. Instead there is some amorphous group…

> A small group of people controlling the money supply is democracy to you?? What do you see as democratic in the fiat money system? Absolutely. The current monetary system is controlled by the people. The Fed was created by an act of congress and continues to operate at the whim of Congress. Its mandate is to maintain a low, fixed rate of inflation and maximum employment - while being at arms length of the executive…

Not to mention the Fed chair and board is appointed by Congress. It's meant to be an indirect choice, but it is a choice none-the-less. It's just like how Supreme Court justices are appointed. They have similarly broad powers fairly far removed from the will of the people, moment to moment.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#233

Post by arcticbull » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 9:13 PM UTC

glerk wrote: post #225

endisneigh wrote: post #3

There's some good data here - that being said, even if the carbon footprint were literally zero, I couldn't personally support cryptocurrency. Fundamentally it's the antithesis to democracy. Say whatever you will about all forms of government, but ultimately no matter the form, there's some level of accountability. Some governments use elections to facilitate this, others use the threat of rulers being killed. One wa…

> Fundamentally it's the antithesis to democracy. Good. I never consented to capital controls, property confiscation, drug laws and all the other blessings that “democracy” has bestowed on me. Finally there might be a path to opting out.

> Good. I never consented to capital controls, property confiscation, drug laws and all the other blessings that “democracy” has bestowed on me. Finally there might be a path to opting out.

And none of that has anything whatsoever to do with monetary policy. This is a quixotic quest.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#234

Post by chroem- » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 9:16 PM UTC

ARandumGuy wrote: post #219

chroem- wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You may view state control on economic activity as authoritarian, but that's a pretty extreme view. Is it really? Throughout history it seems to go hand-in-hand with massive human rights abuses. Case studies include the USSR, DPRK, China, Cambodia, Cuba, etc.

"State control on economic activity" is extremely broad, and can encompass everything from a USSR style planned economy, to the US government breaking up Standard Oil, to even food safety regulations. Given the context of the post, and the general user makeup of HN, I assumed you were discussing economic control based on places like the US or EU. I'm not entirely sure how North Korea or Cambodia fit into the previous…

Places like the DPRK, Cuba, and Venezuela are especially relevant when discussing cryptocurrency because it's a technology that allows people in those locations to escape economic totalitarianism. What confuses me is that people in democratic countries are calling a tool of democracy "anti-democratic". It's completely illogical.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#235

Post by quantum_solanum » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 9:16 PM UTC

chroem- wrote: post #200

ARandumGuy wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cryptocurrencies advertise themselves as democratic, but in reality they're only as democratic as a corporate shareholder vote. Only those with shares can vote, and more shares = more votes. You may view state control on economic activity as authoritarian, but that's a pretty extreme view. I personally think that a democratically elected government should be able to control the economy when necessary, even if I don't…

> You may view state control on economic activity as authoritarian, but that's a pretty extreme view. Is it really? Throughout history it seems to go hand-in-hand with massive human rights abuses. Case studies include the USSR, DPRK, China, Cambodia, Cuba, etc.

other case studies: Belgian Congo, British East India Company, US chattel slavery, etc.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#236

Post by lottin » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 9:16 PM UTC

mavhc wrote: post #155

hackingforfun wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Fundamentally it's the antithesis to democracy. No one is forced to use crypto. No one is forced to mine it. No one is forced to use it at all. Is this not democratic? The users choose whether they want to use it, miners choose whether to mine it, and the "lack of accountability" you suggest, I just don't agree with at all. Crypto removes the need for government fiat. There is no need for a central authority any mo…

Only reason people jump on cryptocurrencies is their pyramid scheme type nature, get in first or lose out. They're not currencies, they're speculation. People want to spend currencies, why would you ever spend bitcoin when it's designed to always increase in value? Governments are their citizens, they're just people we picked. If you hate the people that are running, there's a built in solution, get someone better to…

The idea that a product (e.g. bitcoin) can be designed in such a way as to always increase in price has to be dismissed as crackpottery.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#237

Post by arcticbull » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 9:16 PM UTC

arcticbull wrote: post #224

spinny wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Fundamentally it's the antithesis to democracy. Really? A small group of people controlling the money supply is democracy to you?? What do you see as democratic in the fiat money system? > The fundamental political issue with cryptocurrency is now you've created some amorphous group of oligarchs whose power cannot be really removed by traditional means. It's just a regression. Instead there is some amorphous group…

> A small group of people controlling the money supply is democracy to you?? What do you see as democratic in the fiat money system? Absolutely. The current monetary system is controlled by the people. The Fed was created by an act of congress and continues to operate at the whim of Congress. Its mandate is to maintain a low, fixed rate of inflation and maximum employment - while being at arms length of the executive…

> After years of studying it, I believe that cryptocurrency is an inherently right-wing, hyper-capitalistic technology built primarily to amplify the wealth of its proponents through a combination of tax avoidance, diminished regulatory oversight and artificially enforced scarcity. [1]

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#238

Post by openfuture » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 9:17 PM UTC

endisneigh wrote: post #228

iskander wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally, if not for the real world resource usage, I would be extremely supportive of cryptocurrencies replacing the traditional financial system for reasons that overlap with your reasons for opposing crypto. Essentially, the financial sector has succeeded so wildly in regulatory capture that we have lost any semblance of democratic control over banks and are unable to dispense punitive consequences for large sca…

Wouldn't the solution be to educate people and get more people to participate in our democracy? Why do you think cryptocurrencies are better?

Any "solution" that rests on "educating people" is not going to work.

What works is incentives and design that makes it hard to misuse or obvious how to use.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#239

Post by endisneigh » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 9:18 PM UTC

hackingforfun wrote: post #230

endisneigh wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Transparency is a part of accountability, but accountability is not transparency.

Let's say, hypothetically, that voting for the president was done on a public blockchain, that anyone can audit, and there were cryptographic guarantees that the people voting are who they say they are. Does that not make that voting system more accountable? In this case I think transparency does lead to accountability.

You don't need a blockchain to do that, and there's a reason voting records for individuals are not made public. It's to protect against coercion, among other things.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#240

Post by joe_the_user » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 9:18 PM UTC

shawnz wrote: post #101

endisneigh wrote: post #3

There's some good data here - that being said, even if the carbon footprint were literally zero, I couldn't personally support cryptocurrency. Fundamentally it's the antithesis to democracy. Say whatever you will about all forms of government, but ultimately no matter the form, there's some level of accountability. Some governments use elections to facilitate this, others use the threat of rulers being killed. One wa…

Why don't the provisions in the bill of rights lead to an amorphous group of oligarch gangsters and cartels who can escape prosecution because they are protected against searches/seizures/etc? Are those provisions a regression to democracy too? Why does democracy need checks and balances at all if the government is fundamentally accountable? > our current system isn't here by accident. Is cryptocurrency here "by acci…

Why does democracy need checks and balances at all if the government is fundamentally accountable?

Some portion of the answers to the objection that cryptocurrency increases the level of unaccountable power seem to be being met with "but look how unaccountable power is now", which misses the power. Boy, yes, power is pretty unaccountable and those with their hands on the levers of power seem to be the wealthy.

Those who benefit from cryptocurrency are also the wealthy, who can use this along with the other levers of power to increase their influence and increase their wealth. There's counter balance to the power of Fed here.