Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated • Hacker News Board

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#101

Post by shawnz » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 7:54 PM UTC

endisneigh wrote: post #3

There's some good data here - that being said, even if the carbon footprint were literally zero, I couldn't personally support cryptocurrency. Fundamentally it's the antithesis to democracy. Say whatever you will about all forms of government, but ultimately no matter the form, there's some level of accountability. Some governments use elections to facilitate this, others use the threat of rulers being killed. One wa…

Why don't the provisions in the bill of rights lead to an amorphous group of oligarch gangsters and cartels who can escape prosecution because they are protected against searches/seizures/etc? Are those provisions a regression to democracy too? Why does democracy need checks and balances at all if the government is fundamentally accountable?

> our current system isn't here by accident.

Is cryptocurrency here "by accident"?

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#102

Post by throwaway98211 » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 7:54 PM UTC

cwkoss wrote: post #19

The idea of taxing cryptocurrencies specifically for carbon emissions is some mixture of naive, shallow and sour grapes. There are a lot of wasteful industries - crypto is a small slice of the overall pie and is arguably the most responsive to market forces. Make universally applied carbon taxes across all industries and let the market sort it out. I'm a crypto bull, and fully support greening our energy economy. Adv…

> There are a lot of wasteful industries

So what? These whataboutisms add nothing to the conversation.

People aren't going to stop caring about the carbon costs of crypto because other industries also suck. Think about it as an adoption blocker -- if your particular tech fetish can't address an issue that many, many people care about it is destined to be usurped by something that can. Would be awesome if the 'crypto bulls' would expend as much energy into ways to fix the carbon problem as they do arguing it doesn't matter.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#103

Post by joe_the_user » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 7:56 PM UTC

cwkoss wrote: post #19

The idea of taxing cryptocurrencies specifically for carbon emissions is some mixture of naive, shallow and sour grapes. There are a lot of wasteful industries - crypto is a small slice of the overall pie and is arguably the most responsive to market forces. Make universally applied carbon taxes across all industries and let the market sort it out. I'm a crypto bull, and fully support greening our energy economy. Adv…

There are a lot of wasteful industries - crypto is a small slice

The difference between crypto and things like agriculture or transportation is obvious. People need food and transportation. If crypto was eliminated entirely tomorrow, on average, no one would suffer - some would lose relative wealth but others would gain relative wealth. Unlike conventional financial markets even, it's hard to argue crypto provides any kind of incentive for efficiency.

Indeed, if crypto mining was punishingly taxed but crypto itself continued, almost no one would suffer, including most crypto holders.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#104

Post by BrianOnHN » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 7:56 PM UTC

binarymax wrote: post #33

"they estimate 12.94GW or 0.45% of total global electricity consumption, with theoretical bounds of [4.65,31.17]GW" Devastating. Now imagine if we spent 0.45% more of global electricity on carbon capture (and growing) and how much better off our prospects would be.

"Here's how the math works out: if you can get 1 percent better each day for one year, you'll end up thirty-seven times better by the time you're done."

I know it doesn't translate, but can anyone look around and say anyone is even trying? (sorry to the few of you that are)

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#105

Post by anonporridge » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 7:58 PM UTC

danuker wrote: post #82

I am a bitcoin owner. That said, I agree that the PoW mining reward is excessive. Right now, a 51% attack on the network costs upwards of $2M/h[1]. That is an obscene amount. I argue this comes from the very high growth not being expected by the creators. Most of the miner rewards right now come from inflation (in spite of inflation being less than 2% per year). This was intended to allow the network to grow permissi…

> I believe that Bitcoin should reduce its block time, in order to trigger the reward halvings more quickly.

Regardless of whether this is a good idea or not, it's not going to happen. This would be a hard fork in the network. Bitcoin already went through a massive civil war over the block size, which is a much less contentious issue than the supply issuance rate. It took years just to get the Segwit softfork out the door and years more to be widely used.

What you're suggesting would start a civil war that would rage for years, if not decades, and by the time it was finally resolved, the network would have already gone through a halving or two and naturally reduced the miner reward.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#106

Post by danuker » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 7:58 PM UTC

endisneigh wrote: post #44

MadSudaca wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about the benefit to the rest of society? Everyone else will, in theory, have some of the same powers that the oligarchs have.

You can do that with a democracy. What benefits do crypto bring?

Not a lot of countries are democracies. Politicians listen to lobbyists more than citizens.

With crypto, you don't have to suffer because of them messing up the economy.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#107

Post by dqx » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 7:58 PM UTC

endisneigh wrote: post #83

dqx wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He was an oligarch, and then was democratically elected. His supreme court appointees will continue to enforce his policies for the rest of their lives. > no system of government can prevent bad actors Everything's the same! So crypto's no worse then?

> His supreme court appointees will continue to enforce his policies for the rest of their lives. that's not how the legislature works. A motivated majority can undo anything via the passing of new legislation via an election of a majority of the house and senate. > Everything's the same! So crypto's no worse then? I already explained in the GP. Give it a read.

Agreed, he was an oligarch, and then was democratically elected, but who's to say what Brett "Devil’s Triangle" Kavanaugh will do in the face of a motivated majority?

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#108

Post by elliekelly » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 8:00 PM UTC

endisneigh wrote: post #72

dogman144 wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The creation of a new gilded class is definitely a valid side effect in the event cryptocurrencies really do extend into a mainstream form of transaction/economic activity. what's doubly interesting is that group, especially as the early adopters are the ones with massive holdings, tend to have fairly intensely libertarian views. a potent combo of "i put my money where my mouth is" and "i was right" and "none of you…

> - inflation hits the poorest classes the hardest re: devaluing their largely all-cash savings, and they have no accountability measures to change that. who will they call, the fed? their senators who approved the fed chair? Inflation generally hurts the middle-class the most. Poor people generally don't have savings and are debtors. Debtors benefit from inflation. Cryptocurrency being open source isn't really relev…

There isn’t going to be a middle class left to hurt anyway.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#109

Post by tclancy » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 8:00 PM UTC

danuker wrote: post #90

pjc50 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Make universally applied carbon taxes across all industries and let the market sort it out Globally?

I'd apply the tax globally, but make it proportional to GDP/capita. A way to enforce this is tariffs.

Both economically inefficient and unlikely to be agreed upon across countries. Perfect.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#110

Post by SantalBlush » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 8:01 PM UTC

nolantait wrote: post #97

alexfoxgill wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Voluntary tax is charity. The whole point of tax is that it applies to everyone by some set of rules that democracy has arrived at.

A customer relationship is different in that the feedback loop between your wants/desires and the governing body is more immediate. The rules that were arrived at seem to be less about effectiveness than about special interests. Not to say the ideas I was asking everyones opinion on are a panacea but taxation as ideology is not beyond reproach. Are there alternatives that curb the bad incentives and force a better ga…

No ideology is beyond reproach. That doesn't mean any single person has the right to circumvent the law at will; instead, we discuss it and make a change as a society. Taxes are no different from other laws in this respect. Just because someone doesn't like them doesn't mean they should get to disregard the law. If that were the case, we should be free to ignore any law we don't like.