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Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

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Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#221

Post by spinny »

endisneigh wrote: post #3

There's some good data here - that being said, even if the carbon footprint were literally zero, I couldn't personally support cryptocurrency. Fundamentally it's the antithesis to democracy. Say whatever you will about all forms of government, but ultimately no matter the form, there's some level of accountability. Some governments use elections to facilitate this, others use the threat of rulers being killed. One wa…

> Fundamentally it's the antithesis to democracy. Really? A small group of people controlling the money supply is democracy to you?? What do you see as democratic in the fiat money system?

> The fundamental political issue with cryptocurrency is now you've created some amorphous group of oligarchs whose power cannot be really removed by traditional means. It's just a regression. Instead there is some amorphous group of oligarchs whose power can be removed by force. This is an issue to me. When people talk about "removal of power" always sound authoritarian. I assume that you are ok with Jack Ma "vanishing" for some months after saying the wrong thing?

> yet another layer to our financial systems for no benefit Not another layer added to the current system, but a new system

> It's here due to learnings - learnings about human nature, markets, and so forth. Agree. It's also outdated. At some point in time rai/fei stones were good enough for the yap people. Many of the defi apps are built with knowledge from the centralized finance world. It's an evolution. It doesn't look like it now because we are still at a very early stage.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#222

Post by mandmandam »

danlugo92 wrote: post #178
maxwell wrote: post #24

Looks like this is mostly about PoW. Here's a recent report on the environmental impact of PoS: http://blockchain.cs.ucl.ac.uk/blockchain-energy-consumption...

PoS does not work https://endthefud.org/PoW

Nano uses dPoS and has worked for years.

Your link is just another Bitcoin maxi with awful logic. No, pumping money into pointless mining doesn't make a coin actually more valuable. It's just a waste. Out of all the real value crypto can bring - speed, trustlessness, decentralisation - mining isn't actually needed for any of it. It just forces things into a pyramid shape.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#223

Post by iskander »

endisneigh wrote: post #3

There's some good data here - that being said, even if the carbon footprint were literally zero, I couldn't personally support cryptocurrency. Fundamentally it's the antithesis to democracy. Say whatever you will about all forms of government, but ultimately no matter the form, there's some level of accountability. Some governments use elections to facilitate this, others use the threat of rulers being killed. One wa…

Personally, if not for the real world resource usage, I would be extremely supportive of cryptocurrencies replacing the traditional financial system for reasons that overlap with your reasons for opposing crypto.

Essentially, the financial sector has succeeded so wildly in regulatory capture that we have lost any semblance of democratic control over banks and are unable to dispense punitive consequences for large scale criminal behavior in finance. There have still been no consequences for large banks issuing known bad mortgages in the early 2000s and then reselling those mortgages in bundles with artificially inflated default rate claims. This "trick" was deployed by most major banks and lead to disastrous consequences for people far removed from finance. Having a route to opt out of traditional finance for e.g. savings accounts, loans, and basic investments, feels like it actually improves the health of our democracy.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#224

Post by arcticbull »

spinny wrote: post #221
endisneigh wrote: post #3

There's some good data here - that being said, even if the carbon footprint were literally zero, I couldn't personally support cryptocurrency. Fundamentally it's the antithesis to democracy. Say whatever you will about all forms of government, but ultimately no matter the form, there's some level of accountability. Some governments use elections to facilitate this, others use the threat of rulers being killed. One wa…

> Fundamentally it's the antithesis to democracy. Really? A small group of people controlling the money supply is democracy to you?? What do you see as democratic in the fiat money system? > The fundamental political issue with cryptocurrency is now you've created some amorphous group of oligarchs whose power cannot be really removed by traditional means. It's just a regression. Instead there is some amorphous group…

> A small group of people controlling the money supply is democracy to you?? What do you see as democratic in the fiat money system?

Absolutely. The current monetary system is controlled by the people. The Fed was created by an act of congress and continues to operate at the whim of Congress. Its mandate is to maintain a low, fixed rate of inflation and maximum employment - while being at arms length of the executive itself to provide predictability and stability across administrations.

The ruling class of Bitcoiners act to manipulate the price both up and down for their own personal gain.

[edit] Doge co-creator Jackson Palmer's analysis is spot on. [1]

[1] https://twitter.com/ummjackson/status/1415353984617914370?s=...

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#225

Post by glerk »

endisneigh wrote: post #3

There's some good data here - that being said, even if the carbon footprint were literally zero, I couldn't personally support cryptocurrency. Fundamentally it's the antithesis to democracy. Say whatever you will about all forms of government, but ultimately no matter the form, there's some level of accountability. Some governments use elections to facilitate this, others use the threat of rulers being killed. One wa…

> Fundamentally it's the antithesis to democracy.

Good. I never consented to capital controls, property confiscation, drug laws and all the other blessings that “democracy” has bestowed on me. Finally there might be a path to opting out.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#226

Post by spinny »

reedjosh wrote: post #194
ARandumGuy wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cryptocurrencies advertise themselves as democratic, but in reality they're only as democratic as a corporate shareholder vote. Only those with shares can vote, and more shares = more votes. You may view state control on economic activity as authoritarian, but that's a pretty extreme view. I personally think that a democratically elected government should be able to control the economy when necessary, even if I don't…

> Only those with shares can vote, and more shares = more votes. Only in Proof of Stake. This is wby Proof of Work is still considered the most secure against centralization. > Otherwise, power will inevitably accumulate in increasingly large corporations, to the detriment of everyone else. Pot --- kettle. How then, if democracy and state authority can check the concentration of power, did we end up here?

People think PoS is "the future" of crypto, but don't understand that you have to lock something of value in the network worth staking.

A PoS crypto only works if there is an initial pre-sale (many of the ICO cryptos), or starting with a PoW period (like Ethereum did, there was also an ICO) and then moving to PoS.

Without one (or both) of the above the tokens at stake are worth nothing

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#228

Post by endisneigh »

iskander wrote: post #223
endisneigh wrote: post #3

There's some good data here - that being said, even if the carbon footprint were literally zero, I couldn't personally support cryptocurrency. Fundamentally it's the antithesis to democracy. Say whatever you will about all forms of government, but ultimately no matter the form, there's some level of accountability. Some governments use elections to facilitate this, others use the threat of rulers being killed. One wa…

Personally, if not for the real world resource usage, I would be extremely supportive of cryptocurrencies replacing the traditional financial system for reasons that overlap with your reasons for opposing crypto. Essentially, the financial sector has succeeded so wildly in regulatory capture that we have lost any semblance of democratic control over banks and are unable to dispense punitive consequences for large sca…

Wouldn't the solution be to educate people and get more people to participate in our democracy? Why do you think cryptocurrencies are better?

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#229

Post by endisneigh »

glerk wrote: post #225
endisneigh wrote: post #3

There's some good data here - that being said, even if the carbon footprint were literally zero, I couldn't personally support cryptocurrency. Fundamentally it's the antithesis to democracy. Say whatever you will about all forms of government, but ultimately no matter the form, there's some level of accountability. Some governments use elections to facilitate this, others use the threat of rulers being killed. One wa…

> Fundamentally it's the antithesis to democracy. Good. I never consented to capital controls, property confiscation, drug laws and all the other blessings that “democracy” has bestowed on me. Finally there might be a path to opting out.

hey, I appreciate your honesty - though if you care about those things, you should become more engaged politically.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#230

Post by hackingforfun »

endisneigh wrote: post #188
hackingforfun wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Public blockchains have way more transparency than existing systems. Please provide an example of an existing democracy you consider to be more transparent, i.e. every single action that is made is public.

Transparency is a part of accountability, but accountability is not transparency.

Let's say, hypothetically, that voting for the president was done on a public blockchain, that anyone can audit, and there were cryptographic guarantees that the people voting are who they say they are. Does that not make that voting system more accountable? In this case I think transparency does lead to accountability.
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