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Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

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Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#191

Post by foobar2021 »

dqx wrote: post #107
endisneigh wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> His supreme court appointees will continue to enforce his policies for the rest of their lives. that's not how the legislature works. A motivated majority can undo anything via the passing of new legislation via an election of a majority of the house and senate. > Everything's the same! So crypto's no worse then? I already explained in the GP. Give it a read.

Agreed, he was an oligarch, and then was democratically elected, but who's to say what Brett "Devil’s Triangle" Kavanaugh will do in the face of a motivated majority?

Get dragged out his chair by the military?

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#192

Post by [deleted] »

xadhominemx wrote: post #150
trts wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bitcoin at least was a deliberate response to what I would paraphrase as the "socialism for the rich, capitalism for the rest" policies of the last global financial crisis. I'm not going to say it will be successful in that aim, but the idea that governments can simply create currency by fiat, donate it to their powerful, insolvent friends, pass the cost along to your grandchildren and/or degrade the value of your sa…

> Bitcoin at least was a deliberate response to what I would paraphrase as the "socialism for the rich, capitalism for the rest" policies of the last global financial crisis. Was it actually, though?

[deleted]

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#193

Post by X6S1x6Okd1st »

throwaway98211 wrote: post #102
cwkoss wrote: post #19

The idea of taxing cryptocurrencies specifically for carbon emissions is some mixture of naive, shallow and sour grapes. There are a lot of wasteful industries - crypto is a small slice of the overall pie and is arguably the most responsive to market forces. Make universally applied carbon taxes across all industries and let the market sort it out. I'm a crypto bull, and fully support greening our energy economy. Adv…

> There are a lot of wasteful industries So what? These whataboutisms add nothing to the conversation. People aren't going to stop caring about the carbon costs of crypto because other industries also suck. Think about it as an adoption blocker -- if your particular tech fetish can't address an issue that many, many people care about it is destined to be usurped by something that can. Would be awesome if the 'crypto…

Because we need a carbon tax. A carbon tax would be SO much more impactful for avoiding 2C and beyond than just a crypto tax.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#194

Post by reedjosh »

ARandumGuy wrote: post #164
chroem- wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Fundamentally it's the antithesis to democracy. What is this even supposed to mean? Strict state controls on economic activity are more within the realm of authoritarian regimes, rather than democracies.

Cryptocurrencies advertise themselves as democratic, but in reality they're only as democratic as a corporate shareholder vote. Only those with shares can vote, and more shares = more votes. You may view state control on economic activity as authoritarian, but that's a pretty extreme view. I personally think that a democratically elected government should be able to control the economy when necessary, even if I don't…

> Only those with shares can vote, and more shares = more votes.

Only in Proof of Stake. This is wby Proof of Work is still considered the most secure against centralization.

> Otherwise, power will inevitably accumulate in increasingly large corporations, to the detriment of everyone else.

Pot --- kettle.

How then, if democracy and state authority can check the concentration of power, did we end up here?

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#195

Post by dqx »

twofornone wrote: post #145
pjc50 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They managed to remove him democratically despite a rebel faction storming the capitol. Slightly less dramatic than Yeltsin on a tank, though.

It's really weird how these far right "terrorists" all stormed the capitol to "overturn the election" and "hang mike pence" but, somehow, completely forgot to bring the guns that they are so well known for having. Pretty funny way to go about an "insurrection", don't you think?

Makes you wonder why congressman Mo Brooks (R-Alabama) wore body armor to the riot, huh? Maybe to protect against the stun guns, pepper spray, baseball bats and pipe bombs?

14 suspects in the attack are facing federal charges related to bringing dangerous weapons inside the Capitol, 2 are facing firearms-related charges. Why didn't you tell DC's US Attorney’s Office that they were actually unarmed?!

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#196

Post by 542458 »

xrd wrote: post #2

I still think war and oil are dirtier and don't see a way to wean ourselves off that consumption and impact. I do see that cryptocurrencies are moving toward energy reduction through things like proof of stake and L2s. https://susanfsu.medium.com/think-btc-is-a-dirty-business-co...

I’m not really sure what your point is. Basically everything pales in comparison to war and oil - by that logic, burning trash in a barrel in my yard is fine. It’s not like if we all switched to Bitcoin tomorrow that war and oil would cease to exist.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#197

Post by paulmd »

NoGravitas wrote: post #4
xrd wrote: post #2

I still think war and oil are dirtier and don't see a way to wean ourselves off that consumption and impact. I do see that cryptocurrencies are moving toward energy reduction through things like proof of stake and L2s. https://susanfsu.medium.com/think-btc-is-a-dirty-business-co...

HERE IS THE ARTICLE YOU CAN SEND TO PEOPLE WHEN THEY SAY “BUT THE ENVIRONMENTAL ISSUES WITH CRYPTOART WILL BE SOLVED SOON, RIGHT?” https://everestpipkin.medium.com/but-the-environmental-issue... The promise of "proof of stake eventually" is just greenwashing.

The thing is that major currencies switching to proof-of-stake just creates a pool of cheap hardware for shitcoins to bootstrap themselves past the threshold of 51% attacks with. So even if every crypto agreed to go proof-of-work tomorrow, it wouldn't change anything - all you've done is "destroy the demand" that is supporting GPU prices, making them paradoxically cheap and creating a paradoxical demand for something else to utilize that capacity. It's another form of Jevon's Paradox in action. The availability of a large supply of a resource "cheaply" will create a demand, someone will find something to do with it.

Also, due to the existence of proof-of-stake it becomes impossible to shut down trading of proof-of-work coins, because while you can outlaw trading them on conventional exchanges, it's realistically impossible to stop them from being traded on decentralized exchanges. So if you want to get rid of the carbon emissions from proof-of-work, you have to kill proof-of-stake as well. Just make it entirely illegal to convert any crypto to USD or vice versa, and illegal to interact with any entity who doesn't respect said sanctions.

Works pretty well for other financial laws in the US, but it needs to have a sufficiently wide scope. It's not possible to retain "the good crypto" because the good crypto is an enabler for the bad crypto.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#198

Post by imtringued »

philwelch wrote: post #162
endisneigh wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you're worried about currency falling under the control of an unaccountable group of oligarchs who can't easily be removed, I have some bad news for you: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Reserve_Board_of_Gover ... These are appointed by the President and confirmed by the Senate, both of which are elected by people democratically. In addition if any of them were particularly egregious, a motivated populace c…

> These are appointed by the President and confirmed by the Senate, both of which are elected by people democratically. Do you know a single person who, in their entire lives, has ever voted for either their President or their Senator primarily on the basis of Federal Reserve Board appointments? Most voters don't even know the constitutional duties of the President. Presidential candidates are (mostly) front men for…

Why would you care? All the Fed is doing is kill inflation as much as it can. The only thing that they should stop doing is QE because it literally does nothing. It's as if we swapped names. My comments wouldn't change.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#199

Post by hackingforfun »

mavhc wrote: post #155
hackingforfun wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Fundamentally it's the antithesis to democracy. No one is forced to use crypto. No one is forced to mine it. No one is forced to use it at all. Is this not democratic? The users choose whether they want to use it, miners choose whether to mine it, and the "lack of accountability" you suggest, I just don't agree with at all. Crypto removes the need for government fiat. There is no need for a central authority any mo…

Only reason people jump on cryptocurrencies is their pyramid scheme type nature, get in first or lose out. They're not currencies, they're speculation. People want to spend currencies, why would you ever spend bitcoin when it's designed to always increase in value? Governments are their citizens, they're just people we picked. If you hate the people that are running, there's a built in solution, get someone better to…

> Only reason people jump on cryptocurrencies is their pyramid scheme type nature, get in first or lose out.

Or they see benefits in the technology?

> People want to spend currencies, why would you ever spend bitcoin when it's designed to always increase in value?

It's possible some of the other cryptos are more suited for currencies. Bitcoin may be more of a store of value like gold, or maybe it's volatility will decrease over time and it would be more suited for a currency. Right now we don't know, but I'm not going to write off the whole sector due to that.

> Governments are their citizens, they're just people we picked. If you hate the people that are running, there's a built in solution, get someone better to run. That's the fundamental part of democracy, anyone can run for office.

I think the normal citizen is so far removed at this point. At least in the US, it's essentially a two party system, and they are both rather full of shit. I still vote though, because why not? But I don't think the system is working well.

> Why is a central control over money supply bad? Lets you attempt to control the boom/bust cycle.

I hold USD. I'd like for it to stay valuable. I have a government that seems to value equities more, and wants people to spend their USD. They print and borrow money like there's no tomorrow. I think this is a bad option, and I'd like there to be alternatives.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#200

Post by chroem- »

ARandumGuy wrote: post #164
chroem- wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Fundamentally it's the antithesis to democracy. What is this even supposed to mean? Strict state controls on economic activity are more within the realm of authoritarian regimes, rather than democracies.

Cryptocurrencies advertise themselves as democratic, but in reality they're only as democratic as a corporate shareholder vote. Only those with shares can vote, and more shares = more votes. You may view state control on economic activity as authoritarian, but that's a pretty extreme view. I personally think that a democratically elected government should be able to control the economy when necessary, even if I don't…

> You may view state control on economic activity as authoritarian, but that's a pretty extreme view.

Is it really? Throughout history it seems to go hand-in-hand with massive human rights abuses. Case studies include the USSR, DPRK, China, Cambodia, Cuba, etc.

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