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Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

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Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#121

Post by hackingforfun »

endisneigh wrote: post #3

There's some good data here - that being said, even if the carbon footprint were literally zero, I couldn't personally support cryptocurrency. Fundamentally it's the antithesis to democracy. Say whatever you will about all forms of government, but ultimately no matter the form, there's some level of accountability. Some governments use elections to facilitate this, others use the threat of rulers being killed. One wa…

> Fundamentally it's the antithesis to democracy.

No one is forced to use crypto. No one is forced to mine it. No one is forced to use it at all. Is this not democratic? The users choose whether they want to use it, miners choose whether to mine it, and the "lack of accountability" you suggest, I just don't agree with at all.

Crypto removes the need for government fiat. There is no need for a central authority any more over money supply. If you don't like it, fork it, or create a new crypto, and market it. See if it catches on. The democracy of the people will decide whether to use it or not.

Some cryptos also have voting / governance rights, so the users can democratically vote on protocols, directly. In comparison, if I want a law to change at the federal level in the US, first of all there has to be a bill created in support of it (which I have almost zero control over), and then I can call my senator and ask that they support that bill. At that point they can choose to listen or not. I assume they will just do whatever is in their interest to stay in power and support their friends in government that supported them before, not to mention the lobbyists. Even my vote for president in the US in the end is decided by the electoral college, not by the popular vote. How is all of that democratic?

I understand the energy concerns with crypto, but since you are figuring in a zero carbon footprint, I disagree and think you completely miss the benefits that crypto offers over existing systems.

In the end, time will tell and I think there's almost no way that blockchain and crypto won't play a major part in future economies and governance.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#123

Post by danuker »

Freestyler_3 wrote: post #46
bitxbitxbitcoin wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the expense of security. Many people do take that trade.

Which aspect of security do you mean?

If a new node comes to the network, how does it know whether the nodes it sees are showing it the real history, instead of being a malicious group MITM-ing?

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#124

Post by brightball »

endisneigh wrote: post #3

There's some good data here - that being said, even if the carbon footprint were literally zero, I couldn't personally support cryptocurrency. Fundamentally it's the antithesis to democracy. Say whatever you will about all forms of government, but ultimately no matter the form, there's some level of accountability. Some governments use elections to facilitate this, others use the threat of rulers being killed. One wa…

On one hand, I agree with you. On the other hand, mistakes made at the federal level are virtually impossible to reverse. Every new change becomes a new layer that’s harder and harder to pull back and fix.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#125

Post by trts »

shawnz wrote: post #101
endisneigh wrote: post #3

There's some good data here - that being said, even if the carbon footprint were literally zero, I couldn't personally support cryptocurrency. Fundamentally it's the antithesis to democracy. Say whatever you will about all forms of government, but ultimately no matter the form, there's some level of accountability. Some governments use elections to facilitate this, others use the threat of rulers being killed. One wa…

Why don't the provisions in the bill of rights lead to an amorphous group of oligarch gangsters and cartels who can escape prosecution because they are protected against searches/seizures/etc? Are those provisions a regression to democracy too? Why does democracy need checks and balances at all if the government is fundamentally accountable? > our current system isn't here by accident. Is cryptocurrency here "by acci…

Bitcoin at least was a deliberate response to what I would paraphrase as the "socialism for the rich, capitalism for the rest" policies of the last global financial crisis.

I'm not going to say it will be successful in that aim, but the idea that governments can simply create currency by fiat, donate it to their powerful, insolvent friends, pass the cost along to your grandchildren and/or degrade the value of your savings is not what I consider to be a democratic system.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#126

Post by danuker »

anonporridge wrote: post #116
rblion wrote: post #76

The carbon footprint is the bottleneck for crypto. How can it scale without accelerating further ecological collapse? New coins will come along with greenwash in their rhetoric but ultimately you have to trust the science. It's funny how everyone trusts the science when it supports their worldview and ignore it when it doesn't.

Do you realize that bitcoin doesn't require constantly increasing energy use to scale, right? There exists a natural equilibrium of the value of the miner reward, the cost of energy, and the amount of energy consumed.

Indeed, and as miner reward continues to drop every four years, so will the budget to waste energy.

Eventually bitcoin will need to pay its own security through transaction fees.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#127

Post by shkkmo »

nolantait wrote: post #97
alexfoxgill wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Voluntary tax is charity. The whole point of tax is that it applies to everyone by some set of rules that democracy has arrived at.

A customer relationship is different in that the feedback loop between your wants/desires and the governing body is more immediate. The rules that were arrived at seem to be less about effectiveness than about special interests. Not to say the ideas I was asking everyones opinion on are a panacea but taxation as ideology is not beyond reproach. Are there alternatives that curb the bad incentives and force a better ga…

So... citizenship and rights only for those who can afford it?

Or is the voluntariness of the "customer relationship" one way?...in which case you would really just be arguing for a global decrease in immigration restrictions.

The fundemental difference between a citizen and a customer is that it's much harder to citizenship status.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#128

Post by asdff »

foepys wrote: post #57
cwkoss wrote: post #19

The idea of taxing cryptocurrencies specifically for carbon emissions is some mixture of naive, shallow and sour grapes. There are a lot of wasteful industries - crypto is a small slice of the overall pie and is arguably the most responsive to market forces. Make universally applied carbon taxes across all industries and let the market sort it out. I'm a crypto bull, and fully support greening our energy economy. Adv…

The problem with this is that poor people will not be able to keep their fridge powered if energy became too expensive.

Western countries tend to subsidize the basic needs of the poor. I'm sure if it came to it and it became a big issue they would get some governmental aid just like with transit or foodstamps or housing or education or healthcare anything else that slips out of reach for the poor.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#129

Post by nolantait »

bserge wrote: post #85
nolantait wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about the idea that it acts as a balancing weight to the perverse incentives for countries to debase their currency? Radically if the relationship to taxation was more of a voluntary customer relationship it could lead to better outcomes, ignoring how many more problems it might bring. Thoughts?

My first thought is you can share your thoughts with the armed people at your door if you decide to push your voluntary taxation idea. They'll probably listen to you as they're giving you a free ride to your new home. Point is, it's not a balancing weight when the state has the actual power. Broader point: instead of focusing on changing and improving the actual social/political system, people build fantasy escape so…

It is a balancing weight because the states military power depends on a landed citizenry that is easily taxed. If you remove the easily taxed part you also remove the military power part. Not advocating a lawless return to strong man tribalism. But I don't follow the idea that changing the abilities of a government to easily enforce taxation means they will remain effective at enforcing through more expensive means.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#130

Post by anonporridge »

danuker wrote: post #126
anonporridge wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you realize that bitcoin doesn't require constantly increasing energy use to scale, right? There exists a natural equilibrium of the value of the miner reward, the cost of energy, and the amount of energy consumed.

Indeed, and as miner reward continues to drop every four years, so will the budget to waste energy. Eventually bitcoin will need to pay its own security through transaction fees.

Yep. That's what's expected to happen as the inflation rate drops to zero.
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