Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated • Hacker News Board

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#91

Post by nonameiguess » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 7:47 PM UTC

dogman144 wrote: post #69

endisneigh wrote: post #3

There's some good data here - that being said, even if the carbon footprint were literally zero, I couldn't personally support cryptocurrency. Fundamentally it's the antithesis to democracy. Say whatever you will about all forms of government, but ultimately no matter the form, there's some level of accountability. Some governments use elections to facilitate this, others use the threat of rulers being killed. One wa…

The creation of a new gilded class is definitely a valid side effect in the event cryptocurrencies really do extend into a mainstream form of transaction/economic activity. what's doubly interesting is that group, especially as the early adopters are the ones with massive holdings, tend to have fairly intensely libertarian views. a potent combo of "i put my money where my mouth is" and "i was right" and "none of you…

Everything hits the poor the hardest, but I doubt there really is this hypothetical group of people with large cash savings they intend to hold for decades while keeping it in cash. At least in the US. I think that might be a thing in Japan, but not among the poor. The poor are generally debtors, who are helped by inflation because it reduces the real value of what they owe, whereas the goods they purchased on credit appreciate.

Honestly, I don't want to come across like I'm making an argument in favor of intentional inflation, but provided it isn't runaway levels that wreck an economy, I'm not even sure who it hurts. The poor are debtors. The middle class are the biggest holders of 30-year mortgages, which are about the best assets you can possibly hold when there is inflation. The rich hold their wealth in appreciating assets. Issuers of long-term debt and retirees who moved their savings into bonds and cash seem like the most likely to be hurt, but there are so many simple hedges they could have employed. Banks can issue long-term bonds so they're net zero debt holders rather than creditors. Retirees can move their savings into TIPS rather than cash.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#92

Post by RandomLensman » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 7:47 PM UTC

endisneigh wrote: post #3

There's some good data here - that being said, even if the carbon footprint were literally zero, I couldn't personally support cryptocurrency. Fundamentally it's the antithesis to democracy. Say whatever you will about all forms of government, but ultimately no matter the form, there's some level of accountability. Some governments use elections to facilitate this, others use the threat of rulers being killed. One wa…

Their power can be easily removed by larger state actors, not an issue at all. Just imagine the compute power a few 100 billion $ could unleash. And, of course, there is traditional direct action (from stopping all legal uses/on and off ramps all the way to violence).

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#93

Post by joe_the_user » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 7:47 PM UTC

nolantait wrote: post #6

endisneigh wrote: post #3

There's some good data here - that being said, even if the carbon footprint were literally zero, I couldn't personally support cryptocurrency. Fundamentally it's the antithesis to democracy. Say whatever you will about all forms of government, but ultimately no matter the form, there's some level of accountability. Some governments use elections to facilitate this, others use the threat of rulers being killed. One wa…

What about the idea that it acts as a balancing weight to the perverse incentives for countries to debase their currency? Radically if the relationship to taxation was more of a voluntary customer relationship it could lead to better outcomes, ignoring how many more problems it might bring. Thoughts?

Radically if the relationship to taxation was more of a voluntary customer relationship it could lead to better outcomes

The fundamental outcome of this "voluntary taxation" scheme would be that the wealthy would gain an extra layer of control over the actions of the state, aside from the vast influence this group already has (and the wealthy no doubt would be the ones able to make taxes voluntary in this way, notably).

Which is to say argument accept the fundamentally antidemocratic direction that bitcoin pushes society in but tries to paint a prettier face on it.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#94

Post by chroem- » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 7:48 PM UTC

endisneigh wrote: post #3

There's some good data here - that being said, even if the carbon footprint were literally zero, I couldn't personally support cryptocurrency. Fundamentally it's the antithesis to democracy. Say whatever you will about all forms of government, but ultimately no matter the form, there's some level of accountability. Some governments use elections to facilitate this, others use the threat of rulers being killed. One wa…

> Fundamentally it's the antithesis to democracy.

What is this even supposed to mean? Strict state controls on economic activity are more within the realm of authoritarian regimes, rather than democracies.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#95

Post by reedjosh » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 7:48 PM UTC

endisneigh wrote: post #72

dogman144 wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The creation of a new gilded class is definitely a valid side effect in the event cryptocurrencies really do extend into a mainstream form of transaction/economic activity. what's doubly interesting is that group, especially as the early adopters are the ones with massive holdings, tend to have fairly intensely libertarian views. a potent combo of "i put my money where my mouth is" and "i was right" and "none of you…

> - inflation hits the poorest classes the hardest re: devaluing their largely all-cash savings, and they have no accountability measures to change that. who will they call, the fed? their senators who approved the fed chair? Inflation generally hurts the middle-class the most. Poor people generally don't have savings and are debtors. Debtors benefit from inflation. Cryptocurrency being open source isn't really relev…

> Inflation generally hurts the middle-class the most.

The middle class typically has a mortgage and student loan debt for which inflation benefits them.

The closer you are to the spiket, the more debt based inflation benefits you.

The poor do lose the most.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#96

Post by SkyBelow » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 7:48 PM UTC

endisneigh wrote: post #3

There's some good data here - that being said, even if the carbon footprint were literally zero, I couldn't personally support cryptocurrency. Fundamentally it's the antithesis to democracy. Say whatever you will about all forms of government, but ultimately no matter the form, there's some level of accountability. Some governments use elections to facilitate this, others use the threat of rulers being killed. One wa…

>whose power cannot be really removed by traditional means

Can't it be removed by just not using the crypto? Crypto only has value if people buy into it making it a democratic system. People vote which crypto is best based on which they choose to use and pay attention to.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#97

Post by nolantait » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 7:48 PM UTC

alexfoxgill wrote: post #10

nolantait wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about the idea that it acts as a balancing weight to the perverse incentives for countries to debase their currency? Radically if the relationship to taxation was more of a voluntary customer relationship it could lead to better outcomes, ignoring how many more problems it might bring. Thoughts?

Voluntary tax is charity. The whole point of tax is that it applies to everyone by some set of rules that democracy has arrived at.

A customer relationship is different in that the feedback loop between your wants/desires and the governing body is more immediate. The rules that were arrived at seem to be less about effectiveness than about special interests. Not to say the ideas I was asking everyones opinion on are a panacea but taxation as ideology is not beyond reproach. Are there alternatives that curb the bad incentives and force a better game with better outcomes?

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#98

Post by dqx » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 7:50 PM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #36

dqx wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How effective were the traditional means of removing oligarchs? The US just elected a game show host president 4 years ago.

They managed to remove him democratically despite a rebel faction storming the capitol. Slightly less dramatic than Yeltsin on a tank, though.

5 deaths and at least 138 police officers injured. I'd argue Trump's Capitol riot was more dramatic. It even resulted in more suicides.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#99

Post by reedjosh » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 7:50 PM UTC

nonameiguess wrote: post #91

dogman144 wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The creation of a new gilded class is definitely a valid side effect in the event cryptocurrencies really do extend into a mainstream form of transaction/economic activity. what's doubly interesting is that group, especially as the early adopters are the ones with massive holdings, tend to have fairly intensely libertarian views. a potent combo of "i put my money where my mouth is" and "i was right" and "none of you…

Everything hits the poor the hardest, but I doubt there really is this hypothetical group of people with large cash savings they intend to hold for decades while keeping it in cash. At least in the US. I think that might be a thing in Japan, but not among the poor. The poor are generally debtors, who are helped by inflation because it reduces the real value of what they owe, whereas the goods they purchased on credit…

Artificially appreciating assets means paying more taxes when exchanging them via fiat even though no actual value was created in the exchange.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#100

Post by danuker » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 7:53 PM UTC

nonameiguess wrote: post #91

dogman144 wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The creation of a new gilded class is definitely a valid side effect in the event cryptocurrencies really do extend into a mainstream form of transaction/economic activity. what's doubly interesting is that group, especially as the early adopters are the ones with massive holdings, tend to have fairly intensely libertarian views. a potent combo of "i put my money where my mouth is" and "i was right" and "none of you…

Everything hits the poor the hardest, but I doubt there really is this hypothetical group of people with large cash savings they intend to hold for decades while keeping it in cash. At least in the US. I think that might be a thing in Japan, but not among the poor. The poor are generally debtors, who are helped by inflation because it reduces the real value of what they owe, whereas the goods they purchased on credit…

> but provided it isn't runaway levels that wreck an economy, I'm not even sure who it hurts.

It gives governments a tool to erode its liabilities while continuing to spend irresponsibly.

This hurts everyone not willing or able to take cheap credit.