Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated • Hacker News Board

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#161

Post by lottin » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 8:32 PM UTC

tromp wrote: post #114

endisneigh wrote: post #3

There's some good data here - that being said, even if the carbon footprint were literally zero, I couldn't personally support cryptocurrency. Fundamentally it's the antithesis to democracy. Say whatever you will about all forms of government, but ultimately no matter the form, there's some level of accountability. Some governments use elections to facilitate this, others use the threat of rulers being killed. One wa…

> now you've created some amorphous group of oligarchs Only to the extent that the coin is premined or that the emission is heavily concentrated on the first few years. This should be much less of a problem with a purely linear emission (never changing block reward), that takes a century to get yearly supply inflation to under 1%.

Nobody cares about supply inflation.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#162

Post by philwelch » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 8:33 PM UTC

endisneigh wrote: post #143

philwelch wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The fundamental political issue with cryptocurrency is now you've created some amorphous group of oligarchs whose power cannot be really removed by traditional means. It's just a regression. If you're worried about currency falling under the control of an unaccountable group of oligarchs who can't easily be removed, I have some bad news for you: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Reserve_Board_of_Gover... The mo…

> If you're worried about currency falling under the control of an unaccountable group of oligarchs who can't easily be removed, I have some bad news for you: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Reserve_Board_of_Gover ... These are appointed by the President and confirmed by the Senate, both of which are elected by people democratically. In addition if any of them were particularly egregious, a motivated populace c…

> These are appointed by the President and confirmed by the Senate, both of which are elected by people democratically.

Do you know a single person who, in their entire lives, has ever voted for either their President or their Senator primarily on the basis of Federal Reserve Board appointments? Most voters don't even know the constitutional duties of the President. Presidential candidates are (mostly) front men for unaccountable groups of oligarchs who can't easily be removed.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#163

Post by croes » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 8:33 PM UTC

hackingforfun wrote: post #121

endisneigh wrote: post #3

There's some good data here - that being said, even if the carbon footprint were literally zero, I couldn't personally support cryptocurrency. Fundamentally it's the antithesis to democracy. Say whatever you will about all forms of government, but ultimately no matter the form, there's some level of accountability. Some governments use elections to facilitate this, others use the threat of rulers being killed. One wa…

> Fundamentally it's the antithesis to democracy. No one is forced to use crypto. No one is forced to mine it. No one is forced to use it at all. Is this not democratic? The users choose whether they want to use it, miners choose whether to mine it, and the "lack of accountability" you suggest, I just don't agree with at all. Crypto removes the need for government fiat. There is no need for a central authority any mo…

You aren't forced to use crypto because fiat exists. If fiat would be replaced by crypto, you would be forced. Crypto is not democratic, it's redundant and it heavily biased towards the one with most resources. It's an oligarchy.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#164

Post by ARandumGuy » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 8:33 PM UTC

chroem- wrote: post #94

endisneigh wrote: post #3

There's some good data here - that being said, even if the carbon footprint were literally zero, I couldn't personally support cryptocurrency. Fundamentally it's the antithesis to democracy. Say whatever you will about all forms of government, but ultimately no matter the form, there's some level of accountability. Some governments use elections to facilitate this, others use the threat of rulers being killed. One wa…

> Fundamentally it's the antithesis to democracy. What is this even supposed to mean? Strict state controls on economic activity are more within the realm of authoritarian regimes, rather than democracies.

Cryptocurrencies advertise themselves as democratic, but in reality they're only as democratic as a corporate shareholder vote. Only those with shares can vote, and more shares = more votes.

You may view state control on economic activity as authoritarian, but that's a pretty extreme view. I personally think that a democratically elected government should be able to control the economy when necessary, even if I don't always agree on how that control is applied. Otherwise, power will inevitably accumulate in increasingly large corporations, to the detriment of everyone else.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#165

Post by paulgb » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 8:33 PM UTC

bitxbitxbitcoin wrote: post #34

gt565k wrote: post #15

PoS blockchains like cardano have solved the carbon and energy problem. Move over bitcoin.

At the expense of security. Many people do take that trade.

Bitcoin's hashrate is currently 98+%[1] incentivized by inflation. As that decreases over the next few halvings, unless transaction fees exponentially increase accordingly, Bitcoin's security may not be such a selling point any longer.

[1] https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/bitcoin-fee_to_reward.h...

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#166

Post by mavhc » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 8:33 PM UTC

theyx wrote: post #149

yladiz wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is that a benefit?

Because some people convinced themselves that government is bad, even though democratic governments were the GOAL of almost every nation in the pre-independence days. If people cannot trust the institutions that they themselves built, it says more about the morals of those voting than about those so-called corrupt governments.

Governments are so terrible that every group of people on Earth invented them

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#167

Post by imtringued » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 8:35 PM UTC

chroem- wrote: post #134

shkkmo wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Democracies depends on transparency, accountability and the rule of law. Cyrptocurrencies are fundementally more anarchic than democratic.

Democracy is primarily about representation and individual freedom. "Rule of law" is one of the main selling points of authoritarian ideologies. Are you sure you didn't drop a minus sign somewhere?

I prefer laws over guns.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#168

Post by lalaland1125 » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 8:35 PM UTC

nprz wrote: post #151

joe_the_user wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a lot of wasteful industries - crypto is a small slice The difference between crypto and things like agriculture or transportation is obvious. People need food and transportation. If crypto was eliminated entirely tomorrow, on average, no one would suffer - some would lose relative wealth but others would gain relative wealth. Unlike conventional financial markets even, it's hard to argue crypto provides an…

What about commercial cruise lines? Do people need to go on cruises? The cruise industry uses over double the emissions of the bitcoin protocol[0]. Furthermore, millions would be affected if bitcoin were to go offline tomorrow. Particularly people living in authoritarian states[1], or people who do not have access to traditional banking services. [0] https://twitter.com/gladstein/status/1414065840157347840?s=2... [1]…

Most of the discussion about "eliminating" and/or taxing cryptocurrency are about trying to reduce the use of cryptocurrencies within developed countries where they are not needed.

Nobody here is trying to stop people in authoritarian states from using crypto.

Bringing up the authoritarian states is just a strawman.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#169

Post by zaybqp » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 8:36 PM UTC

anonporridge wrote: post #130

danuker wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, and as miner reward continues to drop every four years, so will the budget to waste energy. Eventually bitcoin will need to pay its own security through transaction fees.

Yep. That's what's expected to happen as the inflation rate drops to zero.

How could you expect a POW system to be energy efficient while secure when its token/coin's dollar denominated value has been inflated beyond sanity by irresponsible policies of unelected officials?

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#170

Post by imtringued » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 8:36 PM UTC

Trias11 wrote: post #153

endisneigh wrote: post #3

There's some good data here - that being said, even if the carbon footprint were literally zero, I couldn't personally support cryptocurrency. Fundamentally it's the antithesis to democracy. Say whatever you will about all forms of government, but ultimately no matter the form, there's some level of accountability. Some governments use elections to facilitate this, others use the threat of rulers being killed. One wa…

>>> our current system isn't here by accident And dinasaurs weren't on earth by accident. They were part of evolution and then replaced with other species more appropriate for evolving earth and conditions.

Bitcoin is just the gold standard but worse. With gold you can at least dig up more of it as your economy grows. Bitcoin doesn't care about the real economy.