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The reputation economy is turning us into conformists (2017) [video]

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171–180 of 219 posts

Re: The reputation economy is turning us into conformists (2017) [video]

#171

Let's use Gender as a quick example, why not? A few years ago, I couldn't have said I thought about it at all. For better and for worse, it wasn't part of the discourse. Now, I'm not all that different, yet it comes up again and again. I'm often forced to choose a side, even when it's all hypotheticals and virtues. I feel forced because online media is permanent, each statement is my closing argument. When the litiga…

These people always existed, it is just an uncomfortable change. It used to be holier than thou people at church now it’s holier than thou suburban teenagers on social media. It’s uncomfortable because many people did and still do think these people are liberal and “on their side” and don’t get that this toxic human behavior has existed forever and goes between groups.

The Atlantic's "The New Puritans [1] Mob Justice Is Trampling Democratic Discourse" is a good read (or listen) on the subject: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2021/10/new-pur...

Re: The reputation economy is turning us into conformists (2017) [video]

#172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the right tends to be more tolerant of dissent. ...some restrictions may apply. Abortion, gay rights, immigrants, any non Christian religion; especially Muslims, policy brutality against people of color, healthcare to all, living wages the list goes on...oh and Biden actually winning the election. However, I am not trying to attack you. To give you credit, media is more extreme and biased, except for specific news…

I simply meant that my experience is that those on the right don't deploy ridicule as much when dissent is expressed. I'm not speaking to the individual issues you listed at all, of course we disagree on some of those and likely agree on others. This is obviously subjective, but I have spent some time in 12 step groups. Addiction cuts across the normal divisions we have in life. It affects the poor, the rich, every p…

>I simply meant that my experience is that those on the right don't deploy ridicule as much when dissent is expressed.

They probably have the benefit of keeping their thoughts to themselves more often. These conservatives tend to live in rural areas where there is more likely to be people like themselves. It makes it easier to not have to express their views. Of course people like Trump have make the extremists of the right more comfortable in coming out and expressing their views.

This is just a guess.

>The conservatives I had known, didn't talk about tolerance, but they certainly practiced it when a dissenting opinion was expressed.

We have to consider the circumstances that have led up to the cancel culture in the US. The left has no real power, they haven't had it for decades and at the very least not in my lifetime (1988). The best representation the left has is corporatists (Democrats) who protect the owner class at all costs and "try" to throw meaningless crumbs at their base in terms of social progress to pretend like we aren't slipping backwards(ie. electing a black woman as VP despite her abysmal polling, kneeling in Kente cloth, painting "Black Lives Matter" in giant letters on the street in front of the White House, etc.)

Well the left lost out during the Bush years. Progress seemed to be made in the direction of what the Right wanted and the left lost ground or didn't move forward depending on the issue.

Fair enough, then Obama comes around and what does the Left get? More crumbs in the form of "social progress" while meaningful reform is left out both socially and economically. We had a win in terms of Gay rights but that was decades of fighting and only after it was politically expedient for him towards the end of his presidency (he was against gay marriage going into his presidency). All of this culminates in Trump getting elected and immediately pulling the country even further Right and undoing most of the crumbs from the Obama years.

When the Left has been powerless for decades and with no other avenue to turn to do you really have any surprise that once they discovered the power of "Cancel culture" that they would use it? What else do they have to push back against the Right and at least "try" to enact meaningful reform?

In addition to this, I am always annoyed at attitudes like what you express. I have seen this behavior from all the right wing personalities (Joe Rogan, Ben Shapiro etc.). They always give the benefit of the doubt to when something controversial happens on the right but the left is scrutinized to unbelievable levels and under a microscope in every direction. The most recent stunt is them promoting a tiktok channel called "libs of tiktok" where they collect the most extreme ramblings of random people they don't like and parrot it as representative of the whole Left.

It is complete Revisionist history. Conservatives invented identity politics. It is called Slavery. Its not like Africans decided to come to the US so that 100+ years later they knew they could cancel people. These people were murdered, raped, forced into slavery and now when the left tries to push back in whatever powerless way they can, right wingers are all "I can't believe you are playing identity politics".

Re: The reputation economy is turning us into conformists (2017) [video]

#173
post #82

Social media has massively amplified the penalty for making a mistake or offhand remark. People used to make tasteless jokes all the time and it was treated as it was, just a joke and life continued. Now anything out of the pale that catches the attention of some sort of influencer spells doom. Anyone caught at a bad moment on camera is pilloried, made out to be the anti christ and have people actively seeking out th…

And the worst is kids. If you think you can go off track and say dumb things as an adult, think of the 14yo self. I thank God I was a teenager before the modern internet. There is no forgiveness. The doors of college education can be shut on a whim for a bad joke. Where and when I grew up, your political opinion was irrelevant to your college admission. You didn't have to demonstrate your committment to the polical c…

The talk also mentions this article:

https://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/16/us/spring-break-gets-tame...

Kids nowadays can't party like we used to - because they need to consider that everything mildly interesting they do will be uploaded to our machine overlords for monetization. Bare breasts probably monetize well, so they were one of the first "casualities" of ubiquitous social media.

Re: The reputation economy is turning us into conformists (2017) [video]

#174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree that ordinary people being cancelled for saying something stupid is a bad thing that should be condemned[0], I'll play devil's advocate: however unfair these events may be, are they truly statistically significant? Or is concern about "cancellation" of hard working people itself a moral panic amplified by the nature of modern media? Sure, we've all heard of donglegate, or about that guy whose hand did a…

When have you ever given the "OK" hand gesture around a politician? Why are you saying that like it's some innocuous thing that anyone would do?

To your first question, I do not remember having given any hand gesture around a politician. Have you ever done so?

To your second question, where am I "saying that like it's some innocuous thing that anyone would do"? And what does it matter?

Re: The reputation economy is turning us into conformists (2017) [video]

#175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Publicly espousing an unpopular opinion now can be career suicide Let's not pretend this is new: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hollywood_blacklist The difference now is that visibility is more uniformly distributed across the population.

Poor kids couldn't get a job in Hollywood. Oh the humanity! What's going on now is being blacklisted by multiple industries. People who get marked as such never work in "normal" companies again and have to move continents to find work. You are comparing being blacklisted by a group of people to being blacklisted by society at large.

> People who get marked as such never work in "normal" companies again and have to move continents to find work.

Who?

Maybe I'm just not paying attention to the news, but I somewhere missed the great wave of American software developers migrating to Europe for a better life for their families.

Re: The reputation economy is turning us into conformists (2017) [video]

#176
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the worst is kids. If you think you can go off track and say dumb things as an adult, think of the 14yo self. I thank God I was a teenager before the modern internet. There is no forgiveness. The doors of college education can be shut on a whim for a bad joke. Where and when I grew up, your political opinion was irrelevant to your college admission. You didn't have to demonstrate your committment to the polical c…

Still a spectacularly better proposition than most of US history, where admission were far more restrictive. Many Ivy League schools did not admit women until the 1960s and 1970s. Weird how we forget this stuff and somehow pretend we're living in the more restrictive era.

Sure but the momentum today goes towards more restrictive norms, contrary to what was happening in the 70s.

Re: The reputation economy is turning us into conformists (2017) [video]

#177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Forget Hollywood. Imagine trying to build the career of your choice as a black person, or a woman or an out gay person in that same era. Society was casually blacklisting the literal majority of Americans from most professional realms.

Yes, but that was the case for most of history, and America (and the world) at the time did it progressively less and less (first the abolition of slavery, then women right to vote, civil rights, de-seggregation, and so on). Whereas today it's a new phenomenon, that gets progressively worse even though the problems you've mentioned (regarding blacks, women, gays, etc) are at their historical lower point. So while Ame…

> (even someone like Dave Chappelle, who is a comedian of all things, has been attacked on such grounds).

Dave Chappelle, with his recent $8-figure deal with a prominent pop-culture/FAANG company, who keep publishing and promoting his specials, seems like he's actually a counter-argument to your point.

Re: The reputation economy is turning us into conformists (2017) [video]

#178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I simply meant that my experience is that those on the right don't deploy ridicule as much when dissent is expressed. I'm not speaking to the individual issues you listed at all, of course we disagree on some of those and likely agree on others. This is obviously subjective, but I have spent some time in 12 step groups. Addiction cuts across the normal divisions we have in life. It affects the poor, the rich, every p…

>I simply meant that my experience is that those on the right don't deploy ridicule as much when dissent is expressed. They probably have the benefit of keeping their thoughts to themselves more often. These conservatives tend to live in rural areas where there is more likely to be people like themselves. It makes it easier to not have to express their views. Of course people like Trump have make the extremists of th…

Thank you for the post. I can hear the frustration in your writing. Or perhaps, it's my own frustration that I'm projecting on to you.

More and more, I'm wondering about the proposition that the "left vs right" battle we (broadly) tend to engage in is just a bunch of bullshit that we get caught up in. If there are puppet masters in the world, they surely are happy when we fight amongst ourselves.

Re: The reputation economy is turning us into conformists (2017) [video]

#179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in the States but wasn't raised here. One of the things you might not know is that unless you live in a middle east or China, right of center is left in the States.

Plenty of people say that, but I think this is too simple to be true. You have a lot less conservative Christians in Europe (perhaps with the exception of Poland), but a lot more blatant ethnocentrist nationalists - a legacy of former decades and centuries where everyone was threatened by everyone else. (Exceptions apply.)

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Re: The reputation economy is turning us into conformists (2017) [video]

#180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a non-American who is right of centre, and I can see "my" people adapting cancel culture tactics as well, and I resent it. IMHO such victories are rotten to the core. "Shall there be two cities of Minas Morgul, grinning at each other across a dead land filled with rottenness?" The only thing I can do about it is to interact civilly with like-minded people of totally different political persuasions and hope that…

I live in the States but wasn't raised here. One of the things you might not know is that unless you live in a middle east or China, right of center is left in the States.

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