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Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

theguardian.com

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Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#261

Post by tialaramex »

manigandham wrote: post #127
hef19898 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And there lies the difference that made my grandparents generation, albeit on the Allied side of WW2, the greatest generation. Not the willingness to go to war, that was enforced by drafts all over the globe back then. It was rather the total revamping of the economy, industry and society to support the war against the Nazis and Imperial Japanese. The UK went to rationing, and still people carried on in global strugg…

The US government has a problem with wasteful spending, not collecting enough money. Higher taxes will just mean more waste.

> Higher taxes will just mean more waste.

Nope. Even if 50% of US taxes are "wasted" on things manigandham doesn't care about, it doesn't follow that increasing taxes would simply all be diverted to things manigandham doesn't care about and thus "wasted".

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#262

Post by true_religion »

amrangaye wrote: post #210
AussieWog93 wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Desperate times call for desperate measures, and if the past year of climate catastrophes has shown us anything, it’s high time we act. This same rhetoric has been repeated for decades, and has continually received the same, hostile response from the public and politicians. I'm not arguing that it's wrong or untruthful, but alarmist statements like this are a demonstrably poor tool for rousing the public into action…

But is it really “alarmism” to yell at people inside a house on fire that they need to “get the hell out now!” even if some people in a separate part of the building (not touched by the fire yet) insist that the growing heat is due to something else, God has it in control and would never set the fire, in fact the people yelling out the warnings are just being “alarmist”, it’s against their constitutional rights etc?…

It would be considered alarmist to yell fire to people who had no concept of fire, and if the actual flames were years or decades away.

They won’t thank you until after they see someone being burned.

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#263

Post by da_big_ghey »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #243
ramphastidae wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Come on. The US did not go to the moon because millions of Americans banded together and sacrificed around a single goal. The US went to the moon because the government felt capitalism was losing the PR battle to communism (Soviets) and so decided to pour money into it because they didn’t want to look bad. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Race

A majority of Americans opposed the Apollo program. https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2012/03/a-maj... A majority of Americans support action on climate change.

"Action on climate change" very vague... mostly that is "get more electricity from renewable, maybe get an electric car". It is nothing that reduces the quality of life, that is supported from very few people, almost none. There is reasons the answer to how to fund is always "make the rich pay", Americans do not like paying for stuff.

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#264

Post by andrew_ »

MomoXenosaga wrote: post #225
andrew_ wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's been 50 years of climate catastrophe predictions and the one constant is that [everyone] passionate about it has a wicked case of confirmation bias.

Catastrophic events are happening you just live in a country that can deal with it-for now at least. This summer we saw floods kill people in Germany and Belgium while in the Netherlands nobody died because it spent a fuck ton of money on flood defences.

The flood mitigation that the Dutch have implemented is just unbelievably impressive.

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#265

Post by harimau777 »

fighterpilot wrote: post #103
CapitalistCartr wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because we all, including you, still live on this planet. We need more people, lots more, to switch their purchase to electric vehicles. We all need this.

We need everyone to stop using ICE vehicles, which is distinct to needing everyone to switch to EVs. That distinction is the reason why EV subsidies are so much worse than a carbon or ICE tax. A subsidy leads to pathologies like bike owners giving money to EV owners when that arrow should be flipped. I don't need an EV (or any car), but now I'm artificially incentivized to get one and will actually increase pollution…

While bikes, walking, and public transportation are great in cities, for much of the United States those are not viable options.

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#266

Post by amrangaye »

true_religion wrote: post #262
amrangaye wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But is it really “alarmism” to yell at people inside a house on fire that they need to “get the hell out now!” even if some people in a separate part of the building (not touched by the fire yet) insist that the growing heat is due to something else, God has it in control and would never set the fire, in fact the people yelling out the warnings are just being “alarmist”, it’s against their constitutional rights etc?…

It would be considered alarmist to yell fire to people who had no concept of fire, and if the actual flames were years or decades away. They won’t thank you until after they see someone being burned.

But in this case wouldn’t it be more like they keep seeing people around them being burnt to death all the time, and you have a pretty solid theory of why this happens / how to predict the next burn victims, but they keep insisting it’s actually spontaneous combustion and you’re just being “alarmist” with your predictions of further (and even worse) burnings?

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#267

Post by da_big_ghey »

hef19898 wrote: post #59
jay_kyburz wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Americans (and Australians) will never accept any changes that negatively impact their lives or wallets. Especially when the consequences of climate change are not clear and present. As democracies, we will simply vote out any government that asks us to change our ways. I think Covid19 demonstrates how resistant people are to change, and that they are not willing to make sacrifices for the greater good. Nearly 700,00…

And there lies the difference that made my grandparents generation, albeit on the Allied side of WW2, the greatest generation. Not the willingness to go to war, that was enforced by drafts all over the globe back then. It was rather the total revamping of the economy, industry and society to support the war against the Nazis and Imperial Japanese. The UK went to rationing, and still people carried on in global strugg…

we went into war only with reluctance after pearl harbor because japs were blowing our shit up... population was otherwise coming off a long period of isolationism and would not have fought, i think. considerably easier to deal with global warming than that: we have a wide range of latitudes where we can grow crops, lots of natural resources, can throw money at the problem. no need to destroy our lifestyle today

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#268

Post by da_big_ghey »

tialaramex wrote: post #261
manigandham wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US government has a problem with wasteful spending, not collecting enough money. Higher taxes will just mean more waste.

> Higher taxes will just mean more waste. Nope. Even if 50% of US taxes are "wasted" on things manigandham doesn't care about, it doesn't follow that increasing taxes would simply all be diverted to things manigandham doesn't care about and thus "wasted".

There are two problem here, you are conflating them:

1. Government spend on stupid shit like welfare and all the stuff in Paul's Festivus report,

2. Government spend inefficiently paying lot of buraucrats between when dollars are taken in and when they leave goernment.

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#269

Post by true_religion »

amrangaye wrote: post #266
true_religion wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be considered alarmist to yell fire to people who had no concept of fire, and if the actual flames were years or decades away. They won’t thank you until after they see someone being burned.

But in this case wouldn’t it be more like they keep seeing people around them being burnt to death all the time, and you have a pretty solid theory of why this happens / how to predict the next burn victims, but they keep insisting it’s actually spontaneous combustion and you’re just being “alarmist” with your predictions of further (and even worse) burnings?

Well the catastrophic ends of climate change are just that… ends.

Right now we have had effects but it’s all akin to feeling heat, or coughing from smoke but not actually being burned. Also the heat and smoke randomly shifts to other people so it isn’t consistently hurting anyone.

What’s worse is that we either all escape the building together or we all die together. No one can just choose to believe the theory of the unseen flame and get out alive on their own.

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#270

Post by chiefalchemist »

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #189
chiefalchemist wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The people are similar, yes. The underlying socioeconomic and sociopolitical systems are likely different tho'. We (i.e., the USA) too often talk a good game, but the actions are disconnected. Just one example, the Paris Climate Agreement isn't what most believe it is. The targets aren't tight enough, and there's nothing binding. Compliance is voluntary. Yet it has been and continues to be heralded as essential. An e…

I agree the US is a bit more oligarchic than other similar nations, but not sure what the Paris climate accord examples proves? America was the main holdout, and it wasnt because they thought it wasn't effective enough, quite the opposite. So yes its pretty vital that we do at least that much.

It proves this...it was sold as a major accomplishment. It was sold as one of that POTUS' defining moments. And it wasn't any of that. The USA held it up. The USA made sure it had no teeth.

So the talk was "We're so great" the reality is that's BS.

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