Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#221

Post by sailingparrot » Sat, Oct 02, 2021, 1:43 PM UTC

roenxi wrote: post #167

bryanlarsen wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the Canadian federal election a couple of weeks ago, 95% of votes went to parties that had a carbon tax of some sort in their platform. Canadians aren't very different from Americans. It can be done.

How many Canadians are there in the CCP leadership? China is around 30% of the globes emissions, Canada is 1.5%. Alarmist statements are not going to do anything to Chinese policy. The only thing that is going to work is having a technically better source of energy to move to.

You know what those emissions in China are for right? China is the factory of the world, they build the things that we consume. So applying a carbon tax in Canada will make those goods more expensive and reduce the demand, reducing China's footprint.

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#222

Post by tlear » Sat, Oct 02, 2021, 1:45 PM UTC

fdschoeneman wrote: post #101

There are lots of reasons to oppose this bill; why assume climate change is the only reason? And if it's fair to assume the opposition is to the portion of these taxes and regulations meant to address climate change, why assume the opposition is to efforts to remediate climate change writ large when the opposition might just be to these specific measures? Also, why is explicitly political stuff, let alone badly writt…

The current talking points I assume. The zero cost joke did not work so this the new spiel? It is amazing that these primitive propaganda tricks work on so many otherwise smart people here.

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#223

Post by indymike » Sat, Oct 02, 2021, 1:47 PM UTC

asaddhamani wrote: post #11

We need “unprecedented measures” to stop and reverse the “unprecedented” damage we have caused to the planet and its climate. Desperate times call for desperate measures, and if the past year of climate catastrophes has shown us anything, it’s high time we act. Yes, the proposed changes might be inconvenient but it’s time we suck it up and do the needful. Small steps are not good enough. We need drastic measures.

》Desperate times call for desperate measures, and if the past year of climate catastrophes has shown us anything, it’s high time we act.

This is the battle cry of those who have surrendered to fear and are willing to trade freedom for oppression.

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#224

Post by sershe » Sat, Oct 02, 2021, 1:47 PM UTC

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #194

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Carbon taxes basically do that though. They "fine" you if you use more carbon than your competitors, disadvantaging you in the market. Tax evasion is already a crime, and would be difficult for most people since it would be embedded into the things they buy in a million little ways. But each supplier has their own direct incentive to change that to stay conpetitive. There's room for other policies too, the whole "if…

A company can simply decide to pay the carbon tax, though. Actual penalties mean that you are actually risking your company if you don't comply. Fines are different if the folks in charge have to pay some as well, for example, and/or if they are a significant portion of profit (percentage of profit is a harder hit than a flat carbon tax that you can plan for if you would like). After fines? Jail times for those in ch…

The differences are on the margins... many activities become unprofitable or less profitable if you have to pay carbon tax. Many fuel sources (e.g. coal) become uneconomical, so people switch. I don't see any issue with rich people polluting.

Carbon tax is like LVT - we have commons (ability of the ecosystem to "absorb" emissions), we have to split it up somehow, what better way than to price them in a manner where only the amount that can be sustainably used, is used? People who can make the best use of the capacity, or are willing to burn money on it, will buy it up.

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#225

Post by MomoXenosaga » Sat, Oct 02, 2021, 1:48 PM UTC

andrew_ wrote: post #178

bjt2n3904 wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know, if someone predicted the apocalypse was right around the corner, and the only way to avert it was to dramatically change my lifestyle in a way that was orthogonal to the catastrophe... I'd say you're peddling religion. Especially if I don't change, and the doomsday prophecies fail. (Again, and again, and again...)

There's been 50 years of climate catastrophe predictions and the one constant is that [everyone] passionate about it has a wicked case of confirmation bias.

Catastrophic events are happening you just live in a country that can deal with it-for now at least.

This summer we saw floods kill people in Germany and Belgium while in the Netherlands nobody died because it spent a fuck ton of money on flood defences.

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#226

Post by oefrha » Sat, Oct 02, 2021, 1:48 PM UTC

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #169

Factorium wrote: post #152

The best solution to climate change is a price on Carbon. Anything else is just pork. If we don't want to impose a carbon price on ourselves, we can do it to others via import tariffs.

I disagree: It might be part of the solution, but simply taxing carbon means that rich folks or companies can pollute. We need green methods put into law to force folks to cut their emissions and pollutants - and punish those who run afoul of the laws, including steep fines, possible business shutdowns, and personal liability/criminal charges for CEOS and other folks running the company, especially if they cover up t…

Also, I fail to see how carbon tax collected in the U.S. for wasteful lifestyle is going to be distributed to, say, Ethiopia, with a same-order-of-maginitude population (115M vs 329M) and ~1/150 emissions per capita (according to [1]).

Without scaling back the unsustainable rich American lifestyle, this tax will have limited domestic impact, while punishing developing countries trying to catch up via more polluting industries. Which is perfect for maintaining the world order where the majority of human beings work and live in subpar conditions to support the unsustainable lifestyles of a small minority, I suppose.

[1] https://www.worldometers.info/co2-emissions/co2-emissions-pe...

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#227

Post by merrywhether » Sat, Oct 02, 2021, 1:48 PM UTC

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #194

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Carbon taxes basically do that though. They "fine" you if you use more carbon than your competitors, disadvantaging you in the market. Tax evasion is already a crime, and would be difficult for most people since it would be embedded into the things they buy in a million little ways. But each supplier has their own direct incentive to change that to stay conpetitive. There's room for other policies too, the whole "if…

A company can simply decide to pay the carbon tax, though. Actual penalties mean that you are actually risking your company if you don't comply. Fines are different if the folks in charge have to pay some as well, for example, and/or if they are a significant portion of profit (percentage of profit is a harder hit than a flat carbon tax that you can plan for if you would like). After fines? Jail times for those in ch…

Lots of industries are low margin (the natural state of competitive markets) and cannot simply pay the carbon tax and act like nothing happened. They can pass the price along, and that will hurt these industries according to how elastic their customers’ demand is. So at least we’d be emitting carbon for the things markets deem more useful.

It may not be a total solution, but it’s a first step. Too many climate activists have this brinksman “no but” approach to changing the course of the political ship of climate change (see nuclear power discussion above), when we really need “yes and” even if the first steps aren’t perfect or big enough. Yelling at people to make drastic changes has never convinced even honest skeptics.

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#228

Post by HKH2 » Sat, Oct 02, 2021, 1:51 PM UTC

wdn wrote: post #180

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree: It might be part of the solution, but simply taxing carbon means that rich folks or companies can pollute. We need green methods put into law to force folks to cut their emissions and pollutants - and punish those who run afoul of the laws, including steep fines, possible business shutdowns, and personal liability/criminal charges for CEOS and other folks running the company, especially if they cover up t…

Exactly this. We are seeing Bill Gates telling us HOW to save the planet for being the biggest person polluter but he CAN buy carbon credit to offset his carbon footprint. Hypocrite!

When you put it like that, buying carbon credit seems a lot like paying indulgences.

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#229

Post by TheRealSteel » Sat, Oct 02, 2021, 1:52 PM UTC

AussieWog93 wrote: post #147

asaddhamani wrote: post #11

We need “unprecedented measures” to stop and reverse the “unprecedented” damage we have caused to the planet and its climate. Desperate times call for desperate measures, and if the past year of climate catastrophes has shown us anything, it’s high time we act. Yes, the proposed changes might be inconvenient but it’s time we suck it up and do the needful. Small steps are not good enough. We need drastic measures.

>Desperate times call for desperate measures, and if the past year of climate catastrophes has shown us anything, it’s high time we act. This same rhetoric has been repeated for decades, and has continually received the same, hostile response from the public and politicians. I'm not arguing that it's wrong or untruthful, but alarmist statements like this are a demonstrably poor tool for rousing the public into action…

You're victim blaming.

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#230

Post by garrickvanburen » Sat, Oct 02, 2021, 1:53 PM UTC

AussieWog93 wrote: post #147

asaddhamani wrote: post #11

We need “unprecedented measures” to stop and reverse the “unprecedented” damage we have caused to the planet and its climate. Desperate times call for desperate measures, and if the past year of climate catastrophes has shown us anything, it’s high time we act. Yes, the proposed changes might be inconvenient but it’s time we suck it up and do the needful. Small steps are not good enough. We need drastic measures.

>Desperate times call for desperate measures, and if the past year of climate catastrophes has shown us anything, it’s high time we act. This same rhetoric has been repeated for decades, and has continually received the same, hostile response from the public and politicians. I'm not arguing that it's wrong or untruthful, but alarmist statements like this are a demonstrably poor tool for rousing the public into action…

I agree. Alarmist rhetoric since at least the mid-1980s. We've made massive progress on environmental issues since then, but still the same alarmist rhetoric.