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Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

theguardian.com

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Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#151

Post by bryanlarsen »

AussieWog93 wrote: post #147
asaddhamani wrote: post #11

We need “unprecedented measures” to stop and reverse the “unprecedented” damage we have caused to the planet and its climate. Desperate times call for desperate measures, and if the past year of climate catastrophes has shown us anything, it’s high time we act. Yes, the proposed changes might be inconvenient but it’s time we suck it up and do the needful. Small steps are not good enough. We need drastic measures.

>Desperate times call for desperate measures, and if the past year of climate catastrophes has shown us anything, it’s high time we act. This same rhetoric has been repeated for decades, and has continually received the same, hostile response from the public and politicians. I'm not arguing that it's wrong or untruthful, but alarmist statements like this are a demonstrably poor tool for rousing the public into action…

In the Canadian federal election a couple of weeks ago, 95% of votes went to parties that had a carbon tax of some sort in their platform.

Canadians aren't very different from Americans. It can be done.

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#153

Post by aww_dang »

asaddhamani wrote: post #11

We need “unprecedented measures” to stop and reverse the “unprecedented” damage we have caused to the planet and its climate. Desperate times call for desperate measures, and if the past year of climate catastrophes has shown us anything, it’s high time we act. Yes, the proposed changes might be inconvenient but it’s time we suck it up and do the needful. Small steps are not good enough. We need drastic measures.

Another drastic emergency rationalizing further government largess. Take a few steps back from the minutiae of the arguments for catastrophic warming. Leave that to the side if you can.

Is there anything more hysterical than an appeal to apocalypse?

Have we seen this pattern before, where fear is used to rationalize expanded governance?

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#154

Post by mynameishere »

jay_kyburz wrote: post #46
asaddhamani wrote: post #11

We need “unprecedented measures” to stop and reverse the “unprecedented” damage we have caused to the planet and its climate. Desperate times call for desperate measures, and if the past year of climate catastrophes has shown us anything, it’s high time we act. Yes, the proposed changes might be inconvenient but it’s time we suck it up and do the needful. Small steps are not good enough. We need drastic measures.

Americans (and Australians) will never accept any changes that negatively impact their lives or wallets. Especially when the consequences of climate change are not clear and present. As democracies, we will simply vote out any government that asks us to change our ways. I think Covid19 demonstrates how resistant people are to change, and that they are not willing to make sacrifices for the greater good. Nearly 700,00…

I think Covid19 demonstrates how resistant people are to change

Really? I think Covid-19 showed just how readily people are willing to subject themselves to humiliation and medical experimentation because of a disease whose headline kill rate is low, and whose practical kill rate is abysmal (ie, for the non-nursing home set). Shrug. When the establishment actually decides on the pastoralization of the Western world, they will get it the next day.

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#155

Post by pessimizer »

allendoerfer wrote: post #58
roenxi wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say that, but I get the feeling we've been here before. Pretty much every time there is an ambitious and expensive spending bill after a couple of years it turns out that the 21st century is still ahead. Eg, Obamacare would probably have been described as dragging the US into the 21st century and getting somewhere close to what every other modern democracy has offered for decades. And yet it turned out not to, th…

Fallacy. A step in the right direction is still better than taking no step at all.

This is simply not true.

If a car is barreling towards you, taking a small step towards safety is wasting the time you could have spent jumping out of the way.

Not only do you end up just as dead as you would be if you had done nothing at all, but you've wasted the effort of making a decision and moving; effort you could have spent on more pleasant thoughts if you had just decided to die from the outset.

Even worse, a moderate decision is harder to make than a firm one. Instead of just doing what could be effective, you have to figure out what could be effective, and cut it in half. By the time you've finished your calculations, you won't even have time to make the useless step.

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#156

Post by chiefalchemist »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #151
AussieWog93 wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Desperate times call for desperate measures, and if the past year of climate catastrophes has shown us anything, it’s high time we act. This same rhetoric has been repeated for decades, and has continually received the same, hostile response from the public and politicians. I'm not arguing that it's wrong or untruthful, but alarmist statements like this are a demonstrably poor tool for rousing the public into action…

In the Canadian federal election a couple of weeks ago, 95% of votes went to parties that had a carbon tax of some sort in their platform. Canadians aren't very different from Americans. It can be done.

The people are similar, yes. The underlying socioeconomic and sociopolitical systems are likely different tho'. We (i.e., the USA) too often talk a good game, but the actions are disconnected.

Just one example, the Paris Climate Agreement isn't what most believe it is. The targets aren't tight enough, and there's nothing binding. Compliance is voluntary. Yet it has been and continues to be heralded as essential. An essential paper tiger?

Per Naomi Klein

https://www.wnyc.org/story/coveringclimatenow-naomi-klein-gr...

Of course there are other examples.

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#157

Post by amcoastal »

mynameishere wrote: post #154
jay_kyburz wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Americans (and Australians) will never accept any changes that negatively impact their lives or wallets. Especially when the consequences of climate change are not clear and present. As democracies, we will simply vote out any government that asks us to change our ways. I think Covid19 demonstrates how resistant people are to change, and that they are not willing to make sacrifices for the greater good. Nearly 700,00…

I think Covid19 demonstrates how resistant people are to change Really? I think Covid-19 showed just how readily people are willing to subject themselves to humiliation and medical experimentation because of a disease whose headline kill rate is low, and whose practical kill rate is abysmal (ie, for the non-nursing home set). Shrug. When the establishment actually decides on the pastoralization of the Western world,…

Imagine typing this comment and being proud of yourself for saying a good thing.

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#158

Post by [deleted] »

maceurt wrote: post #148
TaylorAlexander wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Lost cause” makes it seem as if nothing we can do will help. But that isn’t true. There is a lot we could do that will make the world of 2100 and 2200 better than if we continue doing things as we’ve done them. The real problem is that politicians are unwilling to act. But there’s no shortage of action we could take.

Human beings have been going down this path since the start of civilization. Human beings have been acting like this since we have had hierarchies of power and wealth. For us to solve the climate issue would require us as a species to do a complete 180. At that point we won't even be human anymore, which is why I say it is a lot cause. I assume the criteria for a solution to climate change has always included our sur…

[deleted]

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#159

Post by tda »

Factorium wrote: post #152

The best solution to climate change is a price on Carbon. Anything else is just pork. If we don't want to impose a carbon price on ourselves, we can do it to others via import tariffs.

And preferably tax carbon as close to the source as possible (crude oil). Because leaving oil in the geound is so much easier than putting it back in.

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#160

Post by pessimizer »

roenxi wrote: post #52
aaronbrethorst wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh no, god forbid we try to drag ourselves into the 21st century, and get somewhere close to what every other modern democracy has offered for decades.

You say that, but I get the feeling we've been here before. Pretty much every time there is an ambitious and expensive spending bill after a couple of years it turns out that the 21st century is still ahead. Eg, Obamacare would probably have been described as dragging the US into the 21st century and getting somewhere close to what every other modern democracy has offered for decades. And yet it turned out not to, th…

> There needs to be some scepticism about what these bills actually achieve rather than what people would like them to attempt to achieve.

That's not how it works. If you want the bill to seem like a wise decision, you name it something like WISE or SMART. If you want to make it seem like it would work, put the word "effective" somewhere in there. If polling indicates widespread support for universal programs, make sure to stick the word "universal" in there.

Everything's marketing, we can just market ourselves to death. Most of US politics is the mastery of baby boomer tone anyway: that bland assertive 80s speech pattern that makes boomers think you're a wise steward and a moderate, nuanced hand. For that matter, part of it is to repeat the words "complex" and "nuanced" a lot, especially when referring to "challenges" and "responses."

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