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Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

theguardian.com

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Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#231

Post by TheRealSteel »

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #169
Factorium wrote: post #152

The best solution to climate change is a price on Carbon. Anything else is just pork. If we don't want to impose a carbon price on ourselves, we can do it to others via import tariffs.

I disagree: It might be part of the solution, but simply taxing carbon means that rich folks or companies can pollute. We need green methods put into law to force folks to cut their emissions and pollutants - and punish those who run afoul of the laws, including steep fines, possible business shutdowns, and personal liability/criminal charges for CEOS and other folks running the company, especially if they cover up t…

It's justified to execute people who head organizations that have high carbon emissions. At this point, emitting large amounts of carbon should be considered terrorism.

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#233

Post by treebot »

I don't think the climate problem can be solved without some form of authoritarianism.

For most people, climate change does not affect their everyday lives. It primarily affects future generations, and non-humans. Caring about future generations is a form of long term thinking that most humans don't care for or are not capable of. Most people's long term thinking stops at their five year plan, or their kids' future. Very few people think about hundreds of years into the future, let alone thousands. Will this planet be habitable two thousand years from now? Very, very few people think that far ahead. Even less people care about the fate of non-humans.

Then when you throw in the fact that a lot of people have an incentive today to fight back against measures to combat climate change, because it would reduce their profits or threaten their job, the outlook is even more hopeless.

We are never going to get a majority of people on board with fighting climate change, at least not until it's affecting a majority of people's everyday lives. And by then, it will be far too late.

I think the only way is for the minority, who do think long term, to seize power and impose their will on the majority. And, I have to add, because most people think authoritarianism in any form is bad, that in this situation, the authoritarianism would be good, just, appropriate and the best course of action.

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#234

Post by maxerickson »

Glench wrote: post #126
jay_kyburz wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Americans (and Australians) will never accept any changes that negatively impact their lives or wallets. Especially when the consequences of climate change are not clear and present. As democracies, we will simply vote out any government that asks us to change our ways. I think Covid19 demonstrates how resistant people are to change, and that they are not willing to make sacrifices for the greater good. Nearly 700,00…

> Americans (and Australians) will never accept any changes that negatively impact their lives or wallets. Luckily, a lot of the electrification parts of the climate bill will save Americans (and Australians) money without changing lifestyles — same size homes, cars, etc — just electrified. Electric machinery is just that much more efficient. Rewiring America and Rewiring Australia have the actual numbers: https://ww…

It's going to be hard to convince folks to replace their gas water heaters with electric heat pump models that cost ~3x more and save little to no cost annually.

I'm not sure drilling for a heat pump would work in town here, and then the operating cost would still likely be more than gas (heating is at least 75% of my annual consumption).

Figuring out how to eliminate those emissions is important, but it sure as hell isn't going to save me money, especially now and in the short term.

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#236

Post by mrfusion »

treebot wrote: post #233

I don't think the climate problem can be solved without some form of authoritarianism. For most people, climate change does not affect their everyday lives. It primarily affects future generations, and non-humans. Caring about future generations is a form of long term thinking that most humans don't care for or are not capable of. Most people's long term thinking stops at their five year plan, or their kids' future.…

Yikes. So scary that this is the top comment. Climate change can definitely be addressed at the corporate level with carbon taxes and even caps. No need to throw away our free and open society.

The fact that your go-to is to attack human rights is terrifying.

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#237

Post by jimbobimbo »

user-the-name wrote: post #168
bjt2n3904 wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know, if someone predicted the apocalypse was right around the corner, and the only way to avert it was to dramatically change my lifestyle in a way that was orthogonal to the catastrophe... I'd say you're peddling religion. Especially if I don't change, and the doomsday prophecies fail. (Again, and again, and again...)

What you want to say is, you don't believe in science.

What you are describing is religion, not science.

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#238

Post by jimbobimbo »

MomoXenosaga wrote: post #225
andrew_ wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's been 50 years of climate catastrophe predictions and the one constant is that [everyone] passionate about it has a wicked case of confirmation bias.

Catastrophic events are happening you just live in a country that can deal with it-for now at least. This summer we saw floods kill people in Germany and Belgium while in the Netherlands nobody died because it spent a fuck ton of money on flood defences.

Solutions like that are described in great details in a book False Alarm. It was the first book about climate change (for me) that demonstrated how one can agree with the idea of changing climate, yet approach the problem with a level head and practical solutions. Can't recommend highly enough.

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#239

Post by captainredbeard »

smileysteve wrote: post #209
AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is exactly the problem, the generations of Americans who actually wanted to and were capable of doing great things is long gone. We have since been trained by sociopaths to believe only in sociopathy, to only look out for our own interests and eat our fellow man if it betters our lot, and that this is righteous and good. We have systematically dismantled their great works. If we bank on the will of the American…

This is nostalgia; for every American in the past that dreamed of great things, there is a Snopes, Salem, McCarthy

FWIW the government and media were full of communists, McCarthy wasn’t wrong, he just had bad tactics.

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#240

Post by rustybelt »

nerbert wrote: post #201
AussieWog93 wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Desperate times call for desperate measures, and if the past year of climate catastrophes has shown us anything, it’s high time we act. This same rhetoric has been repeated for decades, and has continually received the same, hostile response from the public and politicians. I'm not arguing that it's wrong or untruthful, but alarmist statements like this are a demonstrably poor tool for rousing the public into action…

Well, thing is the alternative is absolutely possible, and we’re seeing it: people getting more expensive energy prices, mosquitoes appear in regions where they traditionally weren’t, causing health issues, insurance premiums increasing, coverage decreased for some types of events (here in Chicago insurance don’t cover for flooding of your basement). Small steps are certainly being taken by nature to make everything…

Are you suggesting that basement flooding in Chicago is due to climate change?
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