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Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

theguardian.com

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Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#181

Post by bryanlarsen »

jay_kyburz wrote: post #46
asaddhamani wrote: post #11

We need “unprecedented measures” to stop and reverse the “unprecedented” damage we have caused to the planet and its climate. Desperate times call for desperate measures, and if the past year of climate catastrophes has shown us anything, it’s high time we act. Yes, the proposed changes might be inconvenient but it’s time we suck it up and do the needful. Small steps are not good enough. We need drastic measures.

Americans (and Australians) will never accept any changes that negatively impact their lives or wallets. Especially when the consequences of climate change are not clear and present. As democracies, we will simply vote out any government that asks us to change our ways. I think Covid19 demonstrates how resistant people are to change, and that they are not willing to make sacrifices for the greater good. Nearly 700,00…

One of the most famous speeches in American history:

"We choose to go to the Moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard, because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win, and the others, too." - Kennedy

I believe that fighting climate change is a problem of similiar magnitude to going to the moon in 1969, and smaller than winning WWII. We did both of those things, we can do this. But we have to want to.

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#182

Post by Joeri »

Factorium wrote: post #152

The best solution to climate change is a price on Carbon. Anything else is just pork. If we don't want to impose a carbon price on ourselves, we can do it to others via import tariffs.

I don't get why everyone talks about carbon instead of fossil fuels. The carbon that's already in the atmosphere cycles through it but doesn't change it. The carbon that gets dug up from the ground gets added to the atmosphere. It seems to me that what we really need to do is stop mining fossil fuels, and e.g. incentivize biofuels. If we tax carbon we also make biofuels more expensive, while in the grand scheme of things they seem to be basically climate neutral?

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#183

Post by bulka »

Factorium wrote: post #152

The best solution to climate change is a price on Carbon. Anything else is just pork. If we don't want to impose a carbon price on ourselves, we can do it to others via import tariffs.

Fact: bears eat beets. Bears, beets, "Battlestar Galactica."

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#184

Post by bryanlarsen »

roenxi wrote: post #167
bryanlarsen wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the Canadian federal election a couple of weeks ago, 95% of votes went to parties that had a carbon tax of some sort in their platform. Canadians aren't very different from Americans. It can be done.

How many Canadians are there in the CCP leadership? China is around 30% of the globes emissions, Canada is 1.5%. Alarmist statements are not going to do anything to Chinese policy. The only thing that is going to work is having a technically better source of energy to move to.

There is a straight forward (but not easy) solution to the China problem. It's called the carbon club, and William Nordhaus won the Nobel Memorial prize for his paper on it. Germany is currently leading the charge to get one set up.

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#185

Post by jay_kyburz »

someotherperson wrote: post #135
jay_kyburz wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Americans (and Australians) will never accept any changes that negatively impact their lives or wallets. Especially when the consequences of climate change are not clear and present. As democracies, we will simply vote out any government that asks us to change our ways. I think Covid19 demonstrates how resistant people are to change, and that they are not willing to make sacrifices for the greater good. Nearly 700,00…

> Americans (and Australians) will never accept any changes that negatively impact their lives or wallets. Especially when the consequences of climate change are not clear and present. As democracies, we will simply vote out any government that asks us to change our ways I'm at a loss for words here. The most lauded Australian prime minister of the last 30 years is the one that banned firearms, dragged Australia into…

>I'm really not sure why you seem to be pinning this on the population.

I think both major parties are dragging their feet on climate because any sacrifices they ask people to make will lose them the election. Covid is different because it has not been an election issue.

I'm pinning it on us, because who else is there.

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#186

Post by hannob »

Factorium wrote: post #152

The best solution to climate change is a price on Carbon. Anything else is just pork. If we don't want to impose a carbon price on ourselves, we can do it to others via import tariffs.

I really wish people would stop thinking that there's this one thing that will fix climate.

There isn't. It'll take lots of things. Carbon pricing is a good one if done right, but it's not a silver bullet. There are no silver bullets.

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#187

Post by ZeroGravitas »

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #169
Factorium wrote: post #152

The best solution to climate change is a price on Carbon. Anything else is just pork. If we don't want to impose a carbon price on ourselves, we can do it to others via import tariffs.

I disagree: It might be part of the solution, but simply taxing carbon means that rich folks or companies can pollute. We need green methods put into law to force folks to cut their emissions and pollutants - and punish those who run afoul of the laws, including steep fines, possible business shutdowns, and personal liability/criminal charges for CEOS and other folks running the company, especially if they cover up t…

Carbon taxes basically do that though. They "fine" you if you use more carbon than your competitors, disadvantaging you in the market.

Tax evasion is already a crime, and would be difficult for most people since it would be embedded into the things they buy in a million little ways. But each supplier has their own direct incentive to change that to stay conpetitive.

There's room for other policies too, the whole "if you dont do carbon taxes youre not serious about climate change" thing seems like a bait and switch by politicians who have already poisoned the well on taxes generally. (And people generally seem ignorant that carbon pricing is an integral part of action on climate change around the world).

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#188

Post by ZeroGravitas »

Joeri wrote: post #182
Factorium wrote: post #152

The best solution to climate change is a price on Carbon. Anything else is just pork. If we don't want to impose a carbon price on ourselves, we can do it to others via import tariffs.

I don't get why everyone talks about carbon instead of fossil fuels. The carbon that's already in the atmosphere cycles through it but doesn't change it. The carbon that gets dug up from the ground gets added to the atmosphere. It seems to me that what we really need to do is stop mining fossil fuels, and e.g. incentivize biofuels. If we tax carbon we also make biofuels more expensive, while in the grand scheme of th…

Its just a shorthand. Most actual policies include gasses other than carbon dioxide (which is different from carbon anyway) and account for things that absorb or emit carbon in other ways (e.g change in land use).

The low hanging fruit is to stop digging up fossil fuels and burning them though and as such theyll be impacted most by "carbon" fees.

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#189

Post by ZeroGravitas »

chiefalchemist wrote: post #156
bryanlarsen wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the Canadian federal election a couple of weeks ago, 95% of votes went to parties that had a carbon tax of some sort in their platform. Canadians aren't very different from Americans. It can be done.

The people are similar, yes. The underlying socioeconomic and sociopolitical systems are likely different tho'. We (i.e., the USA) too often talk a good game, but the actions are disconnected. Just one example, the Paris Climate Agreement isn't what most believe it is. The targets aren't tight enough, and there's nothing binding. Compliance is voluntary. Yet it has been and continues to be heralded as essential. An e…

I agree the US is a bit more oligarchic than other similar nations, but not sure what the Paris climate accord examples proves?

America was the main holdout, and it wasnt because they thought it wasn't effective enough, quite the opposite. So yes its pretty vital that we do at least that much.

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#190

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #181
jay_kyburz wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Americans (and Australians) will never accept any changes that negatively impact their lives or wallets. Especially when the consequences of climate change are not clear and present. As democracies, we will simply vote out any government that asks us to change our ways. I think Covid19 demonstrates how resistant people are to change, and that they are not willing to make sacrifices for the greater good. Nearly 700,00…

One of the most famous speeches in American history: "We choose to go to the Moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard, because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win, and the others, too." - Ken…

Which is exactly the problem, the generations of Americans who actually wanted to and were capable of doing great things is long gone. We have since been trained by sociopaths to believe only in sociopathy, to only look out for our own interests and eat our fellow man if it betters our lot, and that this is righteous and good. We have systematically dismantled their great works.

If we bank on the will of the American people we are surely doomed.

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