Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#191

Post by api » Sat, Oct 02, 2021, 12:59 PM UTC

asaddhamani wrote: post #11

We need “unprecedented measures” to stop and reverse the “unprecedented” damage we have caused to the planet and its climate. Desperate times call for desperate measures, and if the past year of climate catastrophes has shown us anything, it’s high time we act. Yes, the proposed changes might be inconvenient but it’s time we suck it up and do the needful. Small steps are not good enough. We need drastic measures.

It’s politically impossible. Even if we do it, the resulting reduction in fossil consumption here will lower their price and cause them to be burned in developing nations. CO2 is CO2 and physics doesn’t care about politics.

Poor countries cannot afford the luxury of caring about the distant future and poverty is worse than most natural disasters. There is too much to be gained by exploiting cheap energy to undercut others on manufacturing cost. The rise of China is illustrative.

Game theoretically this requires an “all cooperate” scenario in a game whose defection payoff increases as more cooperate. Ask yourself the odds of that in today’s world.

The climate solution would be to pour massive amounts of funding and subsidies into every possible candidate for this, and into scaling and cutting the cost of the candidates that we already have.

We have to get some mix of solar, wind, nuclear, geothermal, hydro, batteries, etc. scaled to the point that it can beat coal and oil on the open global market. It has to be able to win on pure economics.

Reducing the cost of non carbon based energy to below the cost of carbon based energy is the only solution that will “take.”

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#192

Post by ericmay » Sat, Oct 02, 2021, 1:01 PM UTC

fighterpilot wrote: post #85

wk_end wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the rest of us are subsidizing the externality of the destruction your petrol car is wreaking on the environment. ...also, given that you're calling it a "petrol" car - a Briticism - do you even live in the US? If not, you won't be the one subsidizing it in case this bill comes to pass anyway.

Taxing carbon has justification. Subsidizing EVs does not. If I walk and bike everywhere, I shouldn't be funding someone's EV, which has its own externalities above and beyond my bike related to lithium mining and manufacturing and the grid not being fully renewable and taking up more space on public roads. They should be giving me money instead.

I agree with that in some respects, but to be consistent someone else can pick this up and use it as an excuse not to fund lots of other things too.

But also remember that your lifestyle is being subsidized by oil and gas as well. The food you eat, the bike parts for your bike, the road you ride on, all of that is built using oil. So you’re not absolved of oil sin here.

With that being said, EVs are just a bandaid on what is already the wrong solution. The problem is driving at all, not driving gasoline or electric cars. We should be walking and biking and designing cities and towns around that as the primary mode of transportation, not the car. It’s insane that it is normalized in America that if you want something like a cup of coffee people will drive a 3,000lb vehicle half a mile to go get it. The energy expenditure for that is unbelievable. We live in a golden age of cheap energy.

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#193

Post by Joeri » Sat, Oct 02, 2021, 1:02 PM UTC

andrew_ wrote: post #178

bjt2n3904 wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know, if someone predicted the apocalypse was right around the corner, and the only way to avert it was to dramatically change my lifestyle in a way that was orthogonal to the catastrophe... I'd say you're peddling religion. Especially if I don't change, and the doomsday prophecies fail. (Again, and again, and again...)

There's been 50 years of climate catastrophe predictions and the one constant is that [everyone] passionate about it has a wicked case of confirmation bias.

The climate scientists generally haven't been doing the catastrophe predictions. If you go back and read the early IPCC reports, it's not like they were predicting the end of the world was nigh. In fact, they still don't predict that. What they do predict is severe consequences that will have high adaptation costs if we don't limit the amount of warming. They don't predict the end of humanity, but just a big cost to humanity.

The activism comes from people who misrepresent the science. The skepticism also comes from people who misrepresent the science. The public debate is almost orthogonal to what the actual science in the IPCC reports says.

To give an example, the IPCC AR5 (2013) report says this:

"More recent assessments indicate that it is unlikely that annual numbers of tropical storms, hurricanes and major hurricanes counts have increased over the past 100 years in the North Atlantic basin. Evidence, however, is for a virtually certain increase in the frequency and intensity of the strongest tropical cyclones since the 1970s in that region."

An activist picks out the second part and ignores the first. A skeptic picks out the first part and ignores the second. They battle it out, each citing "the science", and both are lying by omission. And that's the best case scenario. Often what gets cited isn't even in the IPCC reports, and of a lineage which is more dubious.

Which is why, if you want to have an informed opinion on the climate, you should ignore the media, ignore the talking heads, and read the IPCC reports.

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#194

Post by Broken_Hippo » Sat, Oct 02, 2021, 1:08 PM UTC

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #187

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree: It might be part of the solution, but simply taxing carbon means that rich folks or companies can pollute. We need green methods put into law to force folks to cut their emissions and pollutants - and punish those who run afoul of the laws, including steep fines, possible business shutdowns, and personal liability/criminal charges for CEOS and other folks running the company, especially if they cover up t…

Carbon taxes basically do that though. They "fine" you if you use more carbon than your competitors, disadvantaging you in the market. Tax evasion is already a crime, and would be difficult for most people since it would be embedded into the things they buy in a million little ways. But each supplier has their own direct incentive to change that to stay conpetitive. There's room for other policies too, the whole "if…

A company can simply decide to pay the carbon tax, though.

Actual penalties mean that you are actually risking your company if you don't comply. Fines are different if the folks in charge have to pay some as well, for example, and/or if they are a significant portion of profit (percentage of profit is a harder hit than a flat carbon tax that you can plan for if you would like). After fines? Jail times for those in charge and closing/auctioning off your business.

Carbon taxed don't do these things, and I'm not a believer in the market taking care of this since carbon taxed don't actually make anyone get more efficient than their competitors, who are only likely to get efficient if it is profitable. Carbon taxes themselves aren't likely to do this.

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#195

Post by rc_mob » Sat, Oct 02, 2021, 1:10 PM UTC

yoz-y wrote: post #5

Ah. The good old “let’s name the law something inopposable so anybody against it will generate clickbait headlines”.

trademark for this tactic is owed by Fox News

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#196

Post by ZeroGravitas » Sat, Oct 02, 2021, 1:14 PM UTC

VBprogrammer wrote: post #31

optimiz3 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only if the vehicle is built in a union shop, which the leading EV manufacturer is not. The credit is significantly reduced otherwise. Also, gas burning PHEVs (Prius) count as EVs which is such a limp handout to legacy auto and does little to push R&D forward.

Honestly, I'll never understand American politics. Linking a EV tax credit to unionisation just boggles my mind.

It falls under the "just transition" stuff.

It's not the autoworker or coalminer's fault and they and their communities should be considered in the solution, not just trampled over, for both political reasons and for basic justice.

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#197

Post by rubyist5eva » Sat, Oct 02, 2021, 1:16 PM UTC

jl6 wrote: post #114

asaddhamani wrote: post #11

We need “unprecedented measures” to stop and reverse the “unprecedented” damage we have caused to the planet and its climate. Desperate times call for desperate measures, and if the past year of climate catastrophes has shown us anything, it’s high time we act. Yes, the proposed changes might be inconvenient but it’s time we suck it up and do the needful. Small steps are not good enough. We need drastic measures.

Probably a good idea to stop pointing to specific weather events as evidence of impending doom, because for all of their specific destructiveness, they have had essentially no impact on humanity’s general way of life. I’m not saying hurricanes and droughts and floods aren’t bad, nor that they won’t get worse, but if you set the bar for catastrophe at the current level, a lot of people are going to decide they can eas…

Climate activists always tell me “weather is not climate” from one side of their mouth while also screaming about extreme weather events as proof of climate doom from the other - I just started tuning it all out.

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#198

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Oct 02, 2021, 1:18 PM UTC

wdn wrote: post #180

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree: It might be part of the solution, but simply taxing carbon means that rich folks or companies can pollute. We need green methods put into law to force folks to cut their emissions and pollutants - and punish those who run afoul of the laws, including steep fines, possible business shutdowns, and personal liability/criminal charges for CEOS and other folks running the company, especially if they cover up t…

Exactly this. We are seeing Bill Gates telling us HOW to save the planet for being the biggest person polluter but he CAN buy carbon credit to offset his carbon footprint. Hypocrite!

[deleted]

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#199

Post by ZeroGravitas » Sat, Oct 02, 2021, 1:23 PM UTC

fighterpilot wrote: post #103

CapitalistCartr wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because we all, including you, still live on this planet. We need more people, lots more, to switch their purchase to electric vehicles. We all need this.

We need everyone to stop using ICE vehicles, which is distinct to needing everyone to switch to EVs. That distinction is the reason why EV subsidies are so much worse than a carbon or ICE tax. A subsidy leads to pathologies like bike owners giving money to EV owners when that arrow should be flipped. I don't need an EV (or any car), but now I'm artificially incentivized to get one and will actually increase pollution…

Thats fine though, you're an outlier (I am too). But general action on climate change is good for people who cycle and use public transport and want to live in livable cities, so its all good. No need to stress over a minor political compromise on the way there. Just enjoy the cleaner air the next time you are out cycling.

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#200

Post by da_big_ghey » Sat, Oct 02, 2021, 1:26 PM UTC

bryanlarsen wrote: post #184

roenxi wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many Canadians are there in the CCP leadership? China is around 30% of the globes emissions, Canada is 1.5%. Alarmist statements are not going to do anything to Chinese policy. The only thing that is going to work is having a technically better source of energy to move to.

There is a straight forward (but not easy) solution to the China problem. It's called the carbon club, and William Nordhaus won the Nobel Memorial prize for his paper on it. Germany is currently leading the charge to get one set up.

i disagree that it would have efficacy, china already is trying to build parallel economic system if needed with cultivation of economic relation in south america and africa. china setting herself up to be to those continents as we were to her, will survive without any carbon membership.