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U.S. declares more than 20 species extinct after exhaustive searches

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Re: U.S. declares more than 20 species extinct after exhaustive searches

#171

Post by beerandt »

bumby wrote: post #133
WalterBright wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, you're saying government control won't have these problems. Socialist governments produced tremendous environmental problems because even though the government consisted solely of altruistic, self-sacrificing, dedicated, incorruptible administrators, the people still needed food, clothing, and washing machines. And the government would try to provide them, rather than face mass starvation.

I don't understand why this is portrayed as some sort of false dichotomy. There can be government regulation without reverting to socialism. There can also be systems of checks and balances to both the ills of unfettered free-market economics and government power structures.

Because the argument isn't for regulation, it's against lobbying and it's against having a government that's influenced by corporatism/ capitalism (because that's largely what lobbying is).

Which pretty clearly makes the alternative socialism / communism, depending on how you want to define them.

Re: U.S. declares more than 20 species extinct after exhaustive searches

#172

Post by wittycardio »

exporectomy wrote: post #141
wittycardio wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup you said it best, you are indeed horrible

No. You've been indoctrinated to believe that environmentalism is like a religion so that you're a bad person for being an infidel and must not question the flimsy claims that the authorities make.

Yes I've been indoctrinated into the horrible belief that the lives of other living things on this earth matter.

Re: U.S. declares more than 20 species extinct after exhaustive searches

#173

Post by beerandt »

akerl_ wrote: post #166
Johnny555 wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was curious what actually happened so looked it up -- looks like conservancy groups tried (and failed) to purchase the land to preserve it, and the land was logged despite the presence of the known endangered bird: "Eckelberry also saw the logging that cut down the trees used by the last Ivory-billed woodpecker" 40 years later a NWR was established on the land. https://www.fws.gov/ivorybill/pdf/IBW%20Singer%20Tract…

So, just to confirm: he did what he wanted with the land, and other than attempting to purchase the land from him and being declined, nobody interfered with his use of his land?

If it became a NWR, then the government eventually took/ acquired it from him (or his successor).

The details of how that happened, whether it was their choice, and how they were compensated for it are what matter.

But it sounds like he at least got to harvest his timber first, as far as not being interfered with.

Re: U.S. declares more than 20 species extinct after exhaustive searches

#174

Post by akerl_ »

beerandt wrote: post #173
akerl_ wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, just to confirm: he did what he wanted with the land, and other than attempting to purchase the land from him and being declined, nobody interfered with his use of his land?

If it became a NWR, then the government eventually took/ acquired it from him (or his successor). The details of how that happened, whether it was their choice, and how they were compensated for it are what matter. But it sounds like he at least got to harvest his timber first, as far as not being interfered with.

I’m not sure I understand what you’re trying to say.

Above, you made some speculative claims that the endangered species caused the property owner to experience increased hardship in using their land. Research in this thread that others have done has shown that wasn’t the case, and yet you persist in pitching speculatively that perhaps they had their property taken away.

What is the statement you’re trying to make, and can you do the legwork to suggest it’s plausible rather than just technically not-yet-disproven?

Re: U.S. declares more than 20 species extinct after exhaustive searches

#175

Post by bliteben »

efitz wrote: post #74

I am probably just a horrible person, but I just don’t care about the extinction of such specific species. Often a member of one species is practically impossible to tell from a member of a different species save for where the individual was found. I care a lot more if “crows” are endangered than if “efitz’ southeastern marble crested crow” is endangered. [ed: spelling] Also, I suspect that such narrowly defined spec…

Splitting is a known tool of conservationists, would you agree that all the prairie chickens that live in Texas aren't important because we have them in other states? The lesser prairie chicken is probably the best example I can think of to what you're arguing, but honestly the splitters while maybe somewhat dishonest seem to have good intentions. Another example might be the Gunnison Sage grouse, both of these are kind of the case of us as a culture not valuing desert landscapes.

I really can't think of a case like you are mentioning where its just egregious splitting that serves no purpose, most of the time its to make a case to preserve the habitat of a bird in a specific place.

You do seem like you might be on the side against the spotted owl since the barred owl is just a better adapted equivalent that due to changing fauna of the great plains was able to migrate west and displace the native spotted owl.

I do agree with one part that you seem to be harping on that sometimes species are sometimes split for seemingly inane purposes, often probably to promote someone's career, but I don't think that is really the case when it comes to conservation, often these are last ditch efforts for landscapes that nobody is paying attention to or caring about since they aren't charismatic. Notice nobody has to split up the resident orcas to get support for them.

Re: U.S. declares more than 20 species extinct after exhaustive searches

#176

Post by loonster »

AlwaysRock wrote: post #109
inter_netuser wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How come they don’t investigate WHAT is actually causing this exactly? Yes climate is changing but did it change that much since 80s? What if it’s some pesticide? or some food packaging or something

It's absolutely changed that much in since the 80s. For humans? Not that much. For tiny animals and bugs? Small change is massive change.

It seems like there were a lot more bugs that would get splattered on cars in the 90s than they do now.

Re: U.S. declares more than 20 species extinct after exhaustive searches

#177

Post by Dylan16807 »

beerandt wrote: post #170
dTal wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Do you really think the Soviet Union did not have endemic corruption in government? Literally no one thinks that or implied it in this conversation. What a non sequitur. I don't think you're even properly reading the comments you reply to.

Saying that "but for" corporate/capitalistic influence, government would be benevolent is very much implying that countries without capitalism shouldn't have corruption.

Who said that?

There's a bunch of comments saying lobbying makes things worse than not having lobbying.

I don't see the ones saying that's the only source of problems?

Re: U.S. declares more than 20 species extinct after exhaustive searches

#178

Post by WalterBright »

mhh__ wrote: post #99
WalterBright wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The extinction of animals caused by humans has been ongoing and increasing since the stone age. There's no way that not having petroleum would have stopped it. > this planet has finite resources No matter is being destroyed or is escaping the planet, aside from a solar system probe now and then. Energy can repurpose and reconfigure existing resources.

Helium is a counterexample to that notion even if it is vaguely true for most other things.

Naturally occurring helium is the result of nuclear processes. Those can be done artificially.

Re: U.S. declares more than 20 species extinct after exhaustive searches

#179

Post by WalterBright »

shkkmo wrote: post #119
WalterBright wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> While the army seems like a purely heirarchical system, it is really a hybrid system since interfaces heavily with the market systems which we call the military-industrial complex. That has nothing to do with how things are run on a military base. Besides, if you've got any evidence that the military worked better in a non-market system, like the USSR, please present. > Markets tend to duplicate effort often in unn…

> Eliminating competition leads to gross inefficiency and incompetence. It can, especially if poorly managed. However, there is a reason why most companies are heirarchical systems. If markets were truely the "one true way to do things" you would see markets all the way down. That simply is not the case. In fact, instead we see that "vertical integration" can be extremely successful and can multiple companies linked…

> you don't see very many successful truely free markets

It's been very successful everywhere it's been tried.

Re: U.S. declares more than 20 species extinct after exhaustive searches

#180

Post by exporectomy »

ogaitnas wrote: post #152
exporectomy wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems to the basic understanding most people have. At school, they teach you about food webs and how breaking one link can ruin everything. That's an enticing idea but is it really true? I'm sure there have been some known cases or it wouldn't be in the text books, but is it common enough to get worried about every obscure species?

Planting seeds of doubt about established science are we? I thought HN was pro-science and environment??

Big difference between science and popular emotion-fueled mischaracterizations of science.
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