Klimaticket: All public transport in Austria with a single ticket for 1095 EUR/y • Hacker News Board

Re: Klimaticket: All public transport in Austria with a single ticket for 1095 EUR/y

#201

Post by whiterock » Thu, Sep 30, 2021, 5:46 PM UTC

southerntofu wrote: post #69

sokoloff wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you go that far, why stop there? What's the reason to have all the expenses and effort of fare collection if you're only going to collect fares from the occasional users of the system and not the daily users? If you're going to make it free for all residents, you might as well just make it free for everyone.

That would indeed cut quite a cost (monetary and environmental) due to barriers, tickets, validation machines, selling points, controllers...

I don‘t think the cost is so high here, we have covert ticket inspectors, none of those fancy electric gates.

Re: Klimaticket: All public transport in Austria with a single ticket for 1095 EUR/y

#202

Post by hadlock » Thu, Sep 30, 2021, 5:56 PM UTC

black_puppydog wrote: post #192

hobofan wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Berlin, they usually enter the train in groups of 3-4, so they are able to check every person in one wagon in between two stops. You also see them pretty often at a station collecting the details of someone who didn't have a ticket. I think both of those factors push most people in Berlin to buy a ticket. With a fine of 60 EUR the staff already pays for itself if they pick up ~2 people/hour, which sounds very real…

You forget the cost it incurs when someone gets caught (and sometimes jailed!) for chicken-shit like this. Edit to add some context: https://www.tagesspiegel.de/berlin/haft-nach-schwarzfahren-u... Consider this article from Berlin where a sizeable number of people in jail are there for riding without a ticket. The cost of that needs to be taken into account here.

In germany, they'll put you in jail for fare evasion? I've always seen it done as a fine and they kick you off the train at the next stop.

Re: Klimaticket: All public transport in Austria with a single ticket for 1095 EUR/y

#203

Post by logifail » Thu, Sep 30, 2021, 5:56 PM UTC

yarcob wrote: post #184

logifail wrote: post #156

This weekend I'll be travelling from Innsbruck to Vienna, a good chunk of the entire length of Austria. I'm not here enough (and not travelling around enough) to be interested in the Klimaticket, but here's how public transport vs car stacks up: Innsbruck to Vienna is 476km (~300mi) by road. It takes about 5 hours to drive, assuming no delays. The way the world is right now, there will certainly be delays. On the fas…

I still think it should be cheaper. The rail card thing is just a scheme to overcharge casual riders and tourists. It's reasonable for people who regularly go by train, but for people like me who do just one or two trips a year it feels like a rip-off. Especially if I want to take my kids, I need to get a different rail card for families, and when you add it all up it's a lot more expensive than taking my car. For so…

> The rail card thing is just a scheme to overcharge casual riders and tourists. It's reasonable for people who regularly go by train (...)

At least for me, one return trip at the reduced rate pays for the price of buying the railcard (which is valid for 12 months).

It's not like one has to sit down with Excel to figure out where the break-even point lies! If I don't make any additional rail journeys in Austria over the next year, I'm still not out of pocket...

Re: Klimaticket: All public transport in Austria with a single ticket for 1095 EUR/y

#204

Post by yarcob » Thu, Sep 30, 2021, 5:58 PM UTC

xyzelement wrote: post #198

yarcob wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I still think it should be cheaper. The rail card thing is just a scheme to overcharge casual riders and tourists. It's reasonable for people who regularly go by train, but for people like me who do just one or two trips a year it feels like a rip-off. Especially if I want to take my kids, I need to get a different rail card for families, and when you add it all up it's a lot more expensive than taking my car. For so…

> really expensive for occassional usage. If you go everday, then an annual pass is a good value. That probably makes sense. If your goal is to increase ridership / reduce emissions, you want to appeal tho those traveling every day. Each person you convert gives you 500+ trips a year. And of course people are most price sensitive to something they do every day. On the flip side, if I travel a few times a year, on one…

That's one way to look at it. Another way:

Every sunday hundreds of people drive from all over Austria to visit the zoo in Schönbrunn. They take the car because the train is way too expensive. If taking the train was cheaper then some of those people would take the train.

Yes, for each of those families it's just one trip. But in aggregate it's also a lot of people.

Why is it more important to get one person to use public transport for 500 trips rather than getting 500 people to use public transport for one trip?

Re: Klimaticket: All public transport in Austria with a single ticket for 1095 EUR/y

#205

Post by jahnu » Thu, Sep 30, 2021, 6:00 PM UTC

logifail wrote: post #171

jahnu wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even during the lockdowns there were times of no checkpoints on the borders again. It was such a relief to finally see them gone. I hope they aren't back again. But yes that is amazing value and travel by train is just nicer.

> Even during the lockdowns there were times of no checkpoints on the borders again. It was such a relief to finally see them gone. Unstaffed, or actually gone? :) Last time I drove into Austria from Germany there were no border guards there to actually check anything, but all the traffic calming measures, warning signs and speed restrictions were still there ("cars use left-hand lane, larger/freight vehicles right h…

Just the usual slow down to 60km and 80km which are always there if I remember correctly.

Re: Klimaticket: All public transport in Austria with a single ticket for 1095 EUR/y

#206

Post by logifail » Thu, Sep 30, 2021, 6:04 PM UTC

yarcob wrote: post #204

xyzelement wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> really expensive for occassional usage. If you go everday, then an annual pass is a good value. That probably makes sense. If your goal is to increase ridership / reduce emissions, you want to appeal tho those traveling every day. Each person you convert gives you 500+ trips a year. And of course people are most price sensitive to something they do every day. On the flip side, if I travel a few times a year, on one…

That's one way to look at it. Another way: Every sunday hundreds of people drive from all over Austria to visit the zoo in Schönbrunn. They take the car because the train is way too expensive. If taking the train was cheaper then some of those people would take the train. Yes, for each of those families it's just one trip. But in aggregate it's also a lot of people. Why is it more important to get one person to use p…

> They take the car because the train is way too expensive

OEBB (Austrian Federal Railways, the state train operator) does offer a family railcard ("Vorteilscard Family"), and it's hardly expensive:

"The Vorteilscard Family offers you a particularly inexpensive option to travel together with children. For only €19 a year, up to 4 children under the age of 15 can accompany you for free."

Re: Klimaticket: All public transport in Austria with a single ticket for 1095 EUR/y

#207

Post by hadlock » Thu, Sep 30, 2021, 6:04 PM UTC

ortusdux wrote: post #62

quadrifoliate wrote: post #30

Next stop: Just make public transport free for all reasonably permanent residents (for example, you could get a free ticket for next year when you file your taxes). Anyone who rides public transport instead of expensive and polluting cars is doing a service for the environment.

Tom Scott did a great video on Luxembourg's switch to free public transport. They were already covering 90% of the cost, so upping that to 100% was easy. London's network, on the other hand, gets roughly 50% of its funding from fares. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feCQPD9DSOA

San Francisco city council voted in favor of making public transit free, even Muni was on board. Total cost was something like $20 million a year (city budget is measured in the Billions) to get rid of fares completely, forever. That happened about two months ago.

Mayor vetoed it, on the grounds that "it would be too popular and overtax muni's capacity". I'm not sure I buy that, my guess is that the local tour bus/tourist bike rental industry disapproved, but that's just speculation on my part. I would personally use Muni about 50% more but I have a chicken-and-egg problem; I don't use it enough to justify a monthly pass, and since I don't have a monthly pass, most times I'd rather just walk than catch a bus.

Re: Klimaticket: All public transport in Austria with a single ticket for 1095 EUR/y

#208

Post by oneplane » Thu, Sep 30, 2021, 6:14 PM UTC

ratww wrote: post #131

lbriner wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the UK, most people who are employed do not file taxes, they are handled by the employer. Other people whose only income is benefits also do not file taxes.

I think it's safe to assume that GPs suggestion includes people who are paying taxes via the employer or receiving benefits. Also, in lots of countries employers already subsidize public transportation costs.

It's also possible the suggestion is based on the concept of a country where 'filing taxes' is some optional or culturally odd thing so people need to be incentivised to do it at all. Or perhaps it's more thinking along the lines of 'someone who is a citizen' and measuring that by using tax filing as proof.

Re: Klimaticket: All public transport in Austria with a single ticket for 1095 EUR/y

#209

Post by mtalantikite » Thu, Sep 30, 2021, 6:16 PM UTC

logifail wrote: post #156

This weekend I'll be travelling from Innsbruck to Vienna, a good chunk of the entire length of Austria. I'm not here enough (and not travelling around enough) to be interested in the Klimaticket, but here's how public transport vs car stacks up: Innsbruck to Vienna is 476km (~300mi) by road. It takes about 5 hours to drive, assuming no delays. The way the world is right now, there will certainly be delays. On the fas…

Here in the US, a shorter trip of NYC to Boston (~364km/226mi) is about 4.5 hours to drive or a little faster by train (faster train "acela" is 3h45m, regular is 4h20m). I'm assuming a "walk-up fare" is just day of, when you arrive at the station. That's generally not something we can do here as trains sell out, but for tomorrow tickets are $170 for the longer train, and between $140-$220 for the faster train (depending on departure time). Prices are one-way. Flying is often cheaper even at these distances, which is infuriating to me.

I'd love to have that $85 full walk-up fare you're getting. I really wish we cared about rail travel here, it's far preferable for me to flying or driving on trips at this distance.

Re: Klimaticket: All public transport in Austria with a single ticket for 1095 EUR/y

#210

Post by yarcob » Thu, Sep 30, 2021, 6:22 PM UTC

logifail wrote: post #206

yarcob wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's one way to look at it. Another way: Every sunday hundreds of people drive from all over Austria to visit the zoo in Schönbrunn. They take the car because the train is way too expensive. If taking the train was cheaper then some of those people would take the train. Yes, for each of those families it's just one trip. But in aggregate it's also a lot of people. Why is it more important to get one person to use p…

> They take the car because the train is way too expensive OEBB (Austrian Federal Railways, the state train operator) does offer a family railcard ("Vorteilscard Family"), and it's hardly expensive: "The Vorteilscard Family offers you a particularly inexpensive option to travel together with children. For only €19 a year, up to 4 children under the age of 15 can accompany you for free."

It sounds cheap, and it's probably a good deal if you ride long distances or frequently.

But when I recently planned a trip from Linz to Vienna for our family it would have cost around 120€ for the train (not including tickets for bus or subway to get to/from train station). Driving costs around 40€ for gas (not including parking fees).