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Klimaticket: All public transport in Austria with a single ticket for 1095 EUR/y

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Re: Klimaticket: All public transport in Austria with a single ticket for 1095 EUR/y

#181

Post by rahimnathwani »

mellavora wrote: post #158
rad_gruchalski wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The area of Luxemburg is 2500km2 and the estimated population is 633k. For comparison: the area of London is ~1500km2 with population of 8m+. Do you think that Luxemburg’s system can be scaled up?

Luxembourg resident here. Free public transport is a game-changer. You don't have to think about it, you just step on the bus, or tram. This also means the bus driver doesn't have to worry about checking tickets. There aren't guards to check if people are jumping over turnstiles, etc. Moving to 'totally free' eliminates all kinds of overhead. There is no reason it couldn't scale. And the question of scaling hides an…

> why do you want to limit the usage of public transport? > If people don't take public, they will take > private transport (cars, etc)

This ignores two elements:

- congestion differs by time of day, and

- capacity is constrained differently by mode

In London:

- it's cheaper to take a bus than to take an underground train, and

- there are ticket types that are only valid after the morning rush hour

Both of these decrease peak congestion on the transport system.

The differential pricing would not push people to private transport, but might push them to buses (whose capacity can more easily be increased) or to postpone their journey to later in the day.

You know what might push people to private transport? Severe congestion on the underground. If you are not fit and aggressive, then trying to get on a Central Line train in the morning might mean waiting for 2-3 full trains to pass before you can get on one.

Re: Klimaticket: All public transport in Austria with a single ticket for 1095 EUR/y

#182

Post by hobofan »

ApolloFortyNine wrote: post #85
lbriner wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I visited Germany, they had cleverly ditched most "gateline staff" like you say but then had a reasonable number of ticket inspectors who would check you had a ticket and it was stamped for the current day. Best of both worlds?

Italy does this and I've always wondered how much they must lose over it. Even as a tourist, every time I saw a ticket agent get on the bus/tram, a good number of people would instantly get off. I do like the system better, it's faster in every way. But lost fares would definitely be a concern. Also not sure how that has anything to do with making public transit free honestly.

In Berlin, they usually enter the train in groups of 3-4, so they are able to check every person in one wagon in between two stops. You also see them pretty often at a station collecting the details of someone who didn't have a ticket.

I think both of those factors push most people in Berlin to buy a ticket. With a fine of 60 EUR the staff already pays for itself if they pick up ~2 people/hour, which sounds very realistic. If they then on top also have the effect of increasing the percentage of paying riders by a tiny amount, the whole program is quickly turning a profit.

Re: Klimaticket: All public transport in Austria with a single ticket for 1095 EUR/y

#183

Post by sokoloff »

albertgoeswoof wrote: post #119
sokoloff wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you go that far, why stop there? What's the reason to have all the expenses and effort of fare collection if you're only going to collect fares from the occasional users of the system and not the daily users? If you're going to make it free for all residents, you might as well just make it free for everyone.

The easy way is to make it legally free for residents and charge tourists but don’t actually enforce it. Just put up ads in the airport and all over the tourist hotspots, run a few fake stories in the media of tourists being fined etc. You get your money for nothing and your travel for free

It seems you'd still need tickets, ticket machines, ticket scanners, ticket sellers, people to put more tickets in the machines, fix the ticket machines and scanners, people to pick up the discarded tickets, etc.

Re: Klimaticket: All public transport in Austria with a single ticket for 1095 EUR/y

#184

Post by yarcob »

logifail wrote: post #156

This weekend I'll be travelling from Innsbruck to Vienna, a good chunk of the entire length of Austria. I'm not here enough (and not travelling around enough) to be interested in the Klimaticket, but here's how public transport vs car stacks up: Innsbruck to Vienna is 476km (~300mi) by road. It takes about 5 hours to drive, assuming no delays. The way the world is right now, there will certainly be delays. On the fas…

I still think it should be cheaper. The rail card thing is just a scheme to overcharge casual riders and tourists. It's reasonable for people who regularly go by train, but for people like me who do just one or two trips a year it feels like a rip-off.

Especially if I want to take my kids, I need to get a different rail card for families, and when you add it all up it's a lot more expensive than taking my car.

For some reason, public transport is always priced in a way that makes it really expensive for occassional usage. If you go everday, then an annual pass is a good value.

If you only ride on public transit occasionally, and you have a car, then taking the car is almost always cheaper. It shouldn't be like that.

Re: Klimaticket: All public transport in Austria with a single ticket for 1095 EUR/y

#185

Post by denimnerd42 »

cletus wrote: post #140

Why should public transport cost anything at all? I mean, what's the point? You might say the service costs money. It does. The ticket prices never cover that so you're already running at a loss. You spend money on enforcement, payment and ticket machines and you reduce usage of the service. But here's the more important point: cars are already subsidized to a huge degree pretty much everywhere through roads, parking…

how do you keep people from just riding the train perpetually?

Re: Klimaticket: All public transport in Austria with a single ticket for 1095 EUR/y

#186

Post by csunbird »

hobofan wrote: post #182
ApolloFortyNine wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Italy does this and I've always wondered how much they must lose over it. Even as a tourist, every time I saw a ticket agent get on the bus/tram, a good number of people would instantly get off. I do like the system better, it's faster in every way. But lost fares would definitely be a concern. Also not sure how that has anything to do with making public transit free honestly.

In Berlin, they usually enter the train in groups of 3-4, so they are able to check every person in one wagon in between two stops. You also see them pretty often at a station collecting the details of someone who didn't have a ticket. I think both of those factors push most people in Berlin to buy a ticket. With a fine of 60 EUR the staff already pays for itself if they pick up ~2 people/hour, which sounds very real…

That is what I see as well. Not sure why they just don’t give free passes to students and people with low income instead.

Re: Klimaticket: All public transport in Austria with a single ticket for 1095 EUR/y

#187

Post by djrogers »

albertgoeswoof wrote: post #119
sokoloff wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you go that far, why stop there? What's the reason to have all the expenses and effort of fare collection if you're only going to collect fares from the occasional users of the system and not the daily users? If you're going to make it free for all residents, you might as well just make it free for everyone.

The easy way is to make it legally free for residents and charge tourists but don’t actually enforce it. Just put up ads in the airport and all over the tourist hotspots, run a few fake stories in the media of tourists being fined etc. You get your money for nothing and your travel for free

Having laws or rules you intentionally don't enforce at all can't be good for society. Why would people conditioned to steal from the state in one way not be expected to eventually steal from them in others as well?

Re: Klimaticket: All public transport in Austria with a single ticket for 1095 EUR/y

#188

Post by scarby2 »

wazoox wrote: post #155
quadrifoliate wrote: post #30

Next stop: Just make public transport free for all reasonably permanent residents (for example, you could get a free ticket for next year when you file your taxes). Anyone who rides public transport instead of expensive and polluting cars is doing a service for the environment.

From what I've read about similar experiments in various cities, in fact it's not an unmitigated good thing. Most augmentation in public transport usage comes not people switching from driving, but people that used to walk or bike.

making intercity public transit free or cheaper - as per here 100% will augment public transit as very few people walk or cycle more than 10 miles each way.

Re: Klimaticket: All public transport in Austria with a single ticket for 1095 EUR/y

#189

Post by RhysU »

sokoloff wrote: post #52
quadrifoliate wrote: post #30

Next stop: Just make public transport free for all reasonably permanent residents (for example, you could get a free ticket for next year when you file your taxes). Anyone who rides public transport instead of expensive and polluting cars is doing a service for the environment.

If you go that far, why stop there? What's the reason to have all the expenses and effort of fare collection if you're only going to collect fares from the occasional users of the system and not the daily users? If you're going to make it free for all residents, you might as well just make it free for everyone.

I like this idea better than most local government UBI proposals. E.g., instead of suggesting UBI in NYC just make the trains free. It's not straight currency but it's unlimited transportation on high capacity, environmentally nice(r) systems. Then people can argue over who can make the experience nicer vs who is going to raise the fares. Ridership-wise, many heavy users already have unlimited cards.

(Still, however, not a UBI fan in general).

Re: Klimaticket: All public transport in Austria with a single ticket for 1095 EUR/y

#190

Post by scarby2 »

cannabis_sam wrote: post #152
quadrifoliate wrote: post #30

Next stop: Just make public transport free for all reasonably permanent residents (for example, you could get a free ticket for next year when you file your taxes). Anyone who rides public transport instead of expensive and polluting cars is doing a service for the environment.

Good luck with that as long as our society is based around subsidizing the fuel cost of those polluting cars (not to mention the externalized cost of pollution), and any politicians that tries to change that will lose their next election.. Our economic system ensures that we keep the gas pedal to the floor both figuratively and literally.

> our society is based around subsidizing the fuel cost of those polluting cars

I think you mean being subsidized by the fuel cost of the cars?

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