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2006: Dwarf Fortress

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Re: 2006: Dwarf Fortress

#91

Post by ZetaZero »

db48x wrote: post #77
ZetaZero wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I’ll give you an example of a fort that I lost.... Sure, this is a great example of "Losing is Fun". Here is my example. Note this is 10+ years ago, so some of the details are hazy, and this was my first or second fortress. I carve out an area for an underground farm, then designate the area for Farming. Something about "needing irrigated farmland" first, but the game doesn't tell me how I can issue an irrigation c…

True, though you might have tried putting a farm on dirt, like a normal person ;) My point is that this is not what people mean when they say that “losing is fun”. They mean that the traditional losing scenarios are not a loss in Dwarf Fortress. This doesn’t mean that the author has spent time smoothing out all of the interactions so that they are obvious or tutorialized the way a AAA game would be.

> True, though you might have tried putting a farm on dirt, like a normal person ;)

I was a dwarf, not a normal person ;>

Re: 2006: Dwarf Fortress

#92

Post by andagainagain »

klondike_klive wrote: post #42

One thing I've never seen asked or answered is whether the name Bay 12 is a reference to the film Aliens - when Ripley picks up a crate with the loader and asks Apone "where do you want it?" he laughs and says "Bay twelve, please." Surely too obscure to be a coincidence?

That is indeed the reference. I don't remember where I read it, but it came from toadyone I'm pretty sure. Might have been one of his early podcasts?

Re: 2006: Dwarf Fortress

#93

Post by andagainagain »

eropple wrote: post #34
riksucks wrote: post #4

The fact that dwarf fortress generates lores and story, makes me feel like I need to try out this game. But it always seems hard to get into

Consider trying Rimworld--it's a more approachable (and in turn, shallower, though not as shallow as you'd expect) riff on the "story generator"/ant-farm approach to game design.

It's definitely has major design philosophy differences that make it scratch a very different itch then dwarf fortress. Both good games, but not really equivalent imo.

RimWorld randomizes difficulty through the game. So when things go crazy the response tends to be Angst against rngesus.

In dwarf fortress when problems arise the answer is almost always that it could have been prevented and or dealt with in many many ways (some that the developer never considered).

Re: 2006: Dwarf Fortress

#94

Post by andagainagain »

TOMDM wrote: post #49
overcast wrote: post #17

The obligatory greatest bug report ever. Dwarf Fortress developer gets in depth about it. So great. The complexity of this game is mind boggling. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAhHkJQ3KgY

I knew what this would be before I clicked and still ended up watching the whole story again. I think it makes up the crux of what makes Dwarf Fort great. You don't need two massive hideously complex systems, when hundreds of smaller ones that all interact are so much more satisfying. Dwarf Fortress seems to do both though, many large systems with hundreds of smaller interactions that build up to the whole. I really…

Honestly I though it was going to be the story of an early bug where dwarves would carry around an arm in their mouth forever.

Re: 2006: Dwarf Fortress

#95

Post by andagainagain »

srcreigh wrote: post #73
gunfighthacksaw wrote: post #50

Just an FYI for anyone who might be thinking of getting into the game. It took me about 6 weeks playing along with the wiki to “git gud” enough to have a mostly stable fort. I used tilesets for eye candy and eventually moved to some of the memory hacking tools like dwarf therapist for a better management UI. YMMV but if you are thinking “gosh it’s too complicated for me” just be patient with it and don’t be afraid to…

I first tried DF a few weeks ago. I tend to avoid wikis for games (Factorio, RuneScape, Minecraft, Valheim) since it can "ruin the fun". Can you comment on the experience of reading the wiki and still having fun? Does the wiki have spoilers? Is the game just too complex to spoil with any amount of reading about it?

Use the wiki. Even better, abuse the wiki, and use tutorials excessively.

Even better imo is to play until you get really confused, then use all the internet resources possible to understand wtf is going on.Then repeat.

I tend to avoid things like the lazy been pack or graphics packs. That's up to your taste though.

Re: 2006: Dwarf Fortress

#96

Post by eropple »

andagainagain wrote: post #93
eropple wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider trying Rimworld--it's a more approachable (and in turn, shallower, though not as shallow as you'd expect) riff on the "story generator"/ant-farm approach to game design.

It's definitely has major design philosophy differences that make it scratch a very different itch then dwarf fortress. Both good games, but not really equivalent imo. RimWorld randomizes difficulty through the game. So when things go crazy the response tends to be Angst against rngesus. In dwarf fortress when problems arise the answer is almost always that it could have been prevented and or dealt with in many many…

Play a different storyteller. ;) Plenty of mods bring with them much fairer storytellers. I like Sara Spacer from Save Our Ship, who scales based on tech level and research completed.

Nobody I know plays the default ones regularly except for Randy, and Randy won't hit you hard enough to break most skilled players.

Re: 2006: Dwarf Fortress

#97

Post by db48x »

ZetaZero wrote: post #91
db48x wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, though you might have tried putting a farm on dirt, like a normal person ;) My point is that this is not what people mean when they say that “losing is fun”. They mean that the traditional losing scenarios are not a loss in Dwarf Fortress. This doesn’t mean that the author has spent time smoothing out all of the interactions so that they are obvious or tutorialized the way a AAA game would be.

> True, though you might have tried putting a farm on dirt, like a normal person ;) I was a dwarf, not a normal person ;>

Hah, ok. Fair enough.

You were supposed to put your farm on _underground_ dirt, like a normal dwarf.

Re: 2006: Dwarf Fortress

#98

Post by [deleted] »

lapsis_beeftech wrote: post #84
TobTobXX wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nah, the custom SDL versions messes everything up.

This is surprising to hear since SDL has never been an issue for me and I have been playing every version as soon as they are released for many years. Is it something that affects the Mac version (which I have never tried)?

[deleted]

Re: 2006: Dwarf Fortress

#99

Post by TobTobXX »

lapsis_beeftech wrote: post #84
TobTobXX wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nah, the custom SDL versions messes everything up.

This is surprising to hear since SDL has never been an issue for me and I have been playing every version as soon as they are released for many years. Is it something that affects the Mac version (which I have never tried)?

Yes, I had no problem on Linux whatsoever. It's just Mac that has these weird issues.
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