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2006: Dwarf Fortress

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71–80 of 99 posts

Re: 2006: Dwarf Fortress

#71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I kinda liked the earlier version of the game, before guides and tools made it easier to get into. This is not a dig on guides, its instead an appreciation for what the game taught me - the idea that losing could be fun. Before that I would always play in a manner that guaranteed success, re-loading if something went wrong. With DF it was either something going spectacularly wrong, or utter boredom when I decided to…

> This is not a dig on guides, its instead an appreciation for what the game taught me - the idea that losing could be fun. I disagree. Losing a game because of undocumented behavior or bugs has never been fun for me. Sid Meier - "A game is a series of interesting choices."

I strongly agree with this - before I realized that plump helmets are an absolute necessity for an early fortress (you have a lot more freedom now - but for a while not immediately building a plump helmet farm would be a really bad decision) I really struggled to have fun - once you've got a general idea of which decisions aren't totally stupid then you reach the interesting choices.

I think that with a proper tutorial there'd be a much more immediately interesting set of choices. I would say though that Civilization has always had obviously bad choices that aren't clear to new players - most games take this approach where the player is given a lot of obvious choices to feel good about rejecting. The difference is that in most games these choices are rather artificially created and clearly signaled because they're obviously wrong (Sorry - are you sure you wanted to create that Barbarian with 18 WIS and CHA and 3 STR and CON?) - in dwarf fortress it's harder to detect those terrible choices due to having pretty much every option open to you as soon as you start a new game (except a few gated features like Law and Nobility).

That all said - maybe you could make a fortress work where you set up a pottery commune and don't actually set up any agriculture - just try and rely entirely on trade to feed your dwarves.

Re: 2006: Dwarf Fortress

#72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nicely put. DF is simply the best game I've ever played, and I've been hooked by many from many genres. The stories told within are insane. I only play it every couple of years when the desire catches me, yet still patreon to DF. This is what games should be. Obviously an insane barrier of entry, took me a few goes to 'get it' and even now i barely get it despite playing many varingly 'fun' forts. I watched many yout…

I kinda liked the earlier version of the game, before guides and tools made it easier to get into. This is not a dig on guides, its instead an appreciation for what the game taught me - the idea that losing could be fun. Before that I would always play in a manner that guaranteed success, re-loading if something went wrong. With DF it was either something going spectacularly wrong, or utter boredom when I decided to…

> the idea that losing could be fun.

Then I think you will love Darkest Dungeon, FTL, and Into The Breach, and specially Sunless Sea, where you need to die so your next character can inherit something of your choice from the previous character, making each successive run a bit easier.

Re: 2006: Dwarf Fortress

#73

Just an FYI for anyone who might be thinking of getting into the game. It took me about 6 weeks playing along with the wiki to “git gud” enough to have a mostly stable fort. I used tilesets for eye candy and eventually moved to some of the memory hacking tools like dwarf therapist for a better management UI. YMMV but if you are thinking “gosh it’s too complicated for me” just be patient with it and don’t be afraid to…

I first tried DF a few weeks ago. I tend to avoid wikis for games (Factorio, RuneScape, Minecraft, Valheim) since it can "ruin the fun".

Can you comment on the experience of reading the wiki and still having fun? Does the wiki have spoilers? Is the game just too complex to spoil with any amount of reading about it?

Re: 2006: Dwarf Fortress

#74
I love Dwarf Fortress but I don't understand the criteria for inclusion of games after 1990. Almost all the titles previous to that are more or less industry milestones but after that the choice become more and more aribtrary and obscure.

Re: 2006: Dwarf Fortress

#75
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rimworld made me forget all my DF keyboard menu commands. From 2009 I had mastered DF keyboard shortcuts like a total maniac. But then I discovered Rimworld, I bought it when it wasn't even on Steam yet so the author e-mailed the download link to you. But I stopped playing when they introduced a bunch of royalty, ESP and religion. Now I'm waiting for the new DF UI in Steam because I wouldn't want to re-learn all the…

Well, “Royalty” adds quite interesting magic system, and “Ideology” adds belief systems, which are fun and are not required to be religious. You can have transhumanist female supremacists, who require their men to go around naked and really like weed parties. Anyway, Royalty and Ideology are DLCs, so you can totally play without them.

The DLCs are welcome additions because once you complete the tech tree and spaceship, you were forced to start over.

Re: 2006: Dwarf Fortress

#76

Just an FYI for anyone who might be thinking of getting into the game. It took me about 6 weeks playing along with the wiki to “git gud” enough to have a mostly stable fort. I used tilesets for eye candy and eventually moved to some of the memory hacking tools like dwarf therapist for a better management UI. YMMV but if you are thinking “gosh it’s too complicated for me” just be patient with it and don’t be afraid to…

I first tried DF a few weeks ago. I tend to avoid wikis for games (Factorio, RuneScape, Minecraft, Valheim) since it can "ruin the fun". Can you comment on the experience of reading the wiki and still having fun? Does the wiki have spoilers? Is the game just too complex to spoil with any amount of reading about it?

It's not an adventure game - the wiki will not spoil it for you. It just gives you the tools. The fun is in using these and you are guaranteed to face a unique set of issues in your playtrhough.

Re: 2006: Dwarf Fortress

#77
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s not what “losing is fun” really means. Winning and losing in Dwarf Fortress is not like most other games. In most games, having everyone in your fortress die would be a loss, it wouldn’t be much fun, and you would have to start the level over. In Dwarf Fortress, by contrast, this can be counted as a win as long as there was a good story to it, or if you learned something new about the game. I’ll give you an ex…

> I’ll give you an example of a fort that I lost.... Sure, this is a great example of "Losing is Fun". Here is my example. Note this is 10+ years ago, so some of the details are hazy, and this was my first or second fortress. I carve out an area for an underground farm, then designate the area for Farming. Something about "needing irrigated farmland" first, but the game doesn't tell me how I can issue an irrigation c…

True, though you might have tried putting a farm on dirt, like a normal person ;)

My point is that this is not what people mean when they say that “losing is fun”. They mean that the traditional losing scenarios are not a loss in Dwarf Fortress. This doesn’t mean that the author has spent time smoothing out all of the interactions so that they are obvious or tutorialized the way a AAA game would be.

Re: 2006: Dwarf Fortress

#78
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've played since 2006 and while I don't find much time these days, I return to it every few years to scratch an itch. I played a lot of ADOM in the old days, and naturally jumped onto DF when it appeared. With tilesets, things became easier, and then with Dwarf Therapist, easier too. Then we got packs like the "Lazy Newb" pack, and with Steam coming too, it'll become even more accessible to folks. The depth of what…

so factorio, rimworld, etc..

Those are mere gateway drugs.

Re: 2006: Dwarf Fortress

#79
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

if you install one of the "lazy newb pack" mods (this is the typical recommendation: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126076.0 ) and watch a tutorial or two on how to use the interface, it's actually quite intuitive. Its interface is similar to vim in many ways.

ah if its similar to vim, then I might give it a try, thank you so much beacon. Sometimes I feel like that these are essential things in nerd culture lol, and I dont feel cultured enough because I dont know these. But yeah lemme fire this up and try

Id suggest reading a tutorial on the DFHack Workflow plugin. It makes the game much easier as you can just automate jobs for the dwarfs so you don't forget to do things like brew alcohol.

Re: 2006: Dwarf Fortress

#80
post #66
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've tried playing DF a couple of times but gave up because I couldn't figure out the install/launch process. One day I will persevere.

Really? You just unzip the thing somewhere, then run the program. No install necessary.

Nah, the custom SDL versions messes everything up.
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