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An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

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281–290 of 335 posts

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#281
post #51

I have no love lost for China[1], or Russia, or the US, all of whom have been duping successive Indian governments for the last 75 years for their own gains.[2] However, if we were to assume that the origins are neither natural (wet markets) nor accidental (lab leaks), but deliberate action on the part of some state that is not China, I have to wonder about the likelihood of this being a botched attempt at triggering…

If you really want to delve into this kind of conspirology, why not point at North Korea, who benefits significantly from having neighboring China that is hostile to US (and will thus prop DPRK as a counter?)

> why not point at North Korea

Because the DPRK SoS was not the one openly talking about regime change in China.[1]

[1] Mike Pompeo Just Declared America’s New China Policy: Regime Change (https://nationalinterest.org/feature/mike-pompeo-just-declar...)

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be clear, while many of the common people who are taking the largely anti-mask/vaccine messaging from the big voices in their camp aren’t doing it because they’re evil, they are being selfish regardless of the fact they’re delusional and misinformed. To be even more clear however, the kinds of people pushing these viewpoints within their community are actually evil and doing it in bad faith for their own self gain…

> If people want to live in their own version of reality I don’t care. But when their version of reality is ruining it for the rest of us, it is a problem Are you sure that is a true statement? What exact ruination are you referring to? Are you saying that we would not have had a delta wave in the U.S. if more people had vaccinated? Or that lockdowns would have gone differently? Or schools? Australia still has a covi…

I’m not pretending or saying that if everyone was vaccinated or wore masks when they should, it would all be over. That said, a lot less people would be dead and we can clearly see in the data as it exists now that areas with lower vaccination rates are doing worse. And of course, the overwhelming majority of deaths are among the unvaccinated. It isn’t rocket science. And we still have a non-trivial segment of the population who can’t get vaccinated (under 12) who are quite literally the victims of people who are largely unvaccinated and making the conscious and what they believe to be moral choice to not wear a mask or be vaccinated.

As far as people not living in reality, this isn’t even primarily about COVID. It also isn’t a refusal to try and have a discussion on my part. It is what happens when people reject information that doesn’t reflect what they believe. They have written themselves off. You’re right. I don’t understand the point of view of someone who thinks there is a satanic cabal of liberals who prey on children. I don’t understand the point of view of someone who thinks 5G is going to read their minds. I don’t understand the point of view of someone who thinks the vaccine is the mark of the beast. I don’t understand the point of view of, based on various polling, 70-80% of republicans who don’t believe Biden won the election legitimately.

Or rather, I do. Or at least I can see how they got there. But what I can’t do is convince them that these things aren’t true. I can’t convince them that someone on the internet who claimed to be an insider and now hasn’t posted anything in like over a year wasn’t actually able to predict all the future events leading up to Donald Trump being reinstated as president and rounding up all the Democrats and liberals and child abusers. These people have already bought into something that is so far out that there is no reaching them. It isn’t for lack of trying. They aren’t willing or ready to accept anything else.

Eventually some of them will find their way out of it, but that is a place they have to get to on their own before anyone can help them out of it.

To answer your final question, it leaves us in a terrible place and exactly where we are. I don’t enjoy this. I’m not reveling in it. It’s fucking depressing. It’s sad. It’s an actual tragedy. We’re in a bad place and I don’t see that changing or getting better any time soon.

I’ll happily discuss things of this nature with people who don’t agree with my general beliefs but I don’t have a lot of patience for someone, and I’ve interacted with more than a few, who flat out deny things that are objectively recordable, let alone anything subject to interpretation. They closed the door, they shut down the conversation.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the vaccine endorsed by the right is called Ivermectin.

I consider myself to be on the right. We use Ivermectin. We have stocked it for years. It's a very handy de-wormer. It has served our livestock very well. If you have never used it, and have never treated animals for worms, maybe you should listen more and talk less. Most experienced people I know on the left are fine with Ivermectin. Oh, you mean for Covid? We use BioNTech and Moderna for that. Please stop confusing…

If you are some separate "right" that has no affiliation to these "Trumpers" then stop donating to/voting for the party that is supporting candidates that clearly align with or benefit from this type of thinking. I didn't confuse anything because that's the rhetoric coming from the right. Even if all of you from the right don't agree with it, you certainly don't do much to fight it. Very few people agree with their political party across the board. Most people vote for the "lesser evil." This is a common viewpoint and is essentially your viewpoint. Your actions of course define who you are.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#285
post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's a mantra at this point that polarization has gotten out of control, but one of the biggest effects it seems to have is this reverse-psychology effect I've long thought the best way of reaching 100% vaccination in the US was to have competing Democrat and Republican vaccines. Democrats could don a dashiki and say one thing while Republicans could put up a crack smoking pillow salesman to say another.

The whole idea that "Republicans will all just listen as long as this spokesman says so" is yet another Flyover-Country dismissal from people who don't get it--the angry conservatives do not have anyone in government meaningfully representing their views, and that's why they're so angry. Trump was the closest thing lately, but it's about deeply-held personal philosophy, not the cult of personality the media wishes it…

[deleted]

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's an important statement, but because it's the self-justifying propaganda of reactionaries. People work together and get things done; I see it all the time; in fact, that's how democracies - by far the most successful form of government in human history - that's how they work.

How could you possibly say democracy is the most successful government system in history? There is little reason to believe that. These sorts of kitschy phrases being substituted for real discourse is why were here. Democracy is nice, but historically it leads to very bad outcomes in a few hundred years. What remains to be seen is whether or not this democracy will sustain itself.

It is the most stable form of governance that doesn't require subjugation of citizens and has the ability to self-correct because election disallow personal

Democacies are indeed young so I don't get your point that it will lead to something "very bad".

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#287
post #42
post #32

I've never worked in virus research, but my understanding is that any researcher would be keeping meticulous records of every virus they're studying, as well as detailed information about genetic differences with any variants they have produced. So if the Chinese govt simply seized access to all research projects at the lab at Wuhan they would have been able to compare all viruses within the lab with SARS-Cov-2 withi…

The lab did do that (...or just claimed they did, if you're inclined to believe there's been a cover-up): >Shi instructed her group to repeat the tests and, at the same time, sent the samples to another facility to sequence the full viral genomes. Meanwhile she frantically went through her own lab’s records from the past few years to check for any mishandling of experimental materials, especially during disposal. Shi…

If she really did do this, why didn't she publish all the records for public perusal? Even if the records can't be proven to not have been altered, it seems this would be a show of good faith.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#288

It's time we admit a lot of 'science' was done with the express purpose of contradicting a republican president, and then admit that this is the reason why many conservatives do not trust science and scientists and experts anymore. Until we do that, this country will not be able to come together.

The "science" more often than not seems like "scientism" to me.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#289

"In addition, the international research community has no access to the sites, samples, or raw data." The reason lab leak is considered a conspiracy theory, is because it's a literal conspiracy theory. The conspiracy being the CCP and potentially U.S. covering up a virus leak from their lab. Of course all sorts of other politics and disinformation get attached. Nobody has the evidence necessary to make evidence based…

A hallmark of a conspiracy theory is you always have a cartoon villein behind it. In this case the CCP is Dr Evil. Also will say the approach the conspiracy theorists and foreign policy operatives have taken with this isn't likely to garner any transparency from China going forward. That's bad because fundamentally despite differences the Chinese and the the US have common interests in this.

> A hallmark of a conspiracy theory is you always have a cartoon villein behind it. In this case the CCP is Dr Evil.

That seems to impliy that everyone who thinks the lab leak is possible also thinks it was intentional. Which I didn't see much of, in real life.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#290
post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the UK we quarantined all people coming in from Wuhan, while flights from Chinese cities outside of Wuhan continued to run without restriction, even though it was known that the virus was there too. There was a lot of wishful thinking and denialism back in January/February 2020. The only country that got the initial response right was North Korea, they shut all their borders, and were mocked for it too.

It's reasonably plausible that what doomed efforts to keep Covid out of the UK (and the US too!) was travel from Italy, not China. Both countries had pretty decent contact tracing for cases linked to China and those people didn't spread it much, the initial outbreak cities of London and New York had substantial travel to the worst-affected region of Italy due to Fashion Week, and the first exported case from the UK d…

The hospitals never actually collapsed. I remember this at the time - there were many reports claiming they were about to totally run out of beds, and this kept being upgraded by commenters into "they have already run out". I kept asking for links that proved this and not getting any. Later some patients got moved to hospitals in Germany but there was some odd stuff about it: an Italian politician was demanding to know why patients were being moved there when there were nearby hospitals in Lombardy with spare beds.

Overall the idea the hospitals collapsed seems to have been a form of telephone game exaggeration, egged on by media reports claiming there were so many bodies they were piling up (actuality: undertakers were refusing to touch bodies because they are mostly old and had been told it would kill them).

What did collapse were care homes. But not because of COVID. Staff fled in fear, often back home to Eastern Europe before the borders closed, leaving too many elderly to die of dehydration and abandonment.

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