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An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

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Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#261

Post by listenallyall »

epakai wrote: post #252
listenallyall wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> conservatives. They're the ones who aren't taking vaccines or wearing masks. Minorities (POC, Latinx) have the lowest vaccination rates. Do these groups generally lean conservative? https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/health...

Hispanic/Latino is 16.6% of all vaccinated while making up 17.2% of population. Black is 10.0% of all vaccinated while making up 12.4% of population. White (non-hispanic) is 61.5% of all vaccinated while making up 61.2% of the population. So we're talking ~2.4 points behind at worst (stats are from the CDC link in your article). For comparison we're talking about more than a 10 point gap when comparing counties by po…

A fourth-grader can see the flaw in your math. 61.5/61.2 is much more than "2.4 points" different than 10.0/12.4. It's much more than "10 points" too.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#262

Post by angelzen »

int_19h wrote: post #231
nradov wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More Americans should visit the Balkans and learn the regional history. It's a beautiful area, and gives some perspective on the universal human capacity for irrational hatred. What I've never understood is how people can get so outraged over even minor political differences. If someone agrees with you 80% then that's an ally, not an enemy.

Pretty much any region has plenty of history that Americans should reflect on. E.g. whenever the American media and/or pundits talk about the "civil war", it's inevitably framed in comparison to the US Civil War. Except that was a very atypical "civil war", as those things go - fought by well-established governments using mostly conventional armies. And while it's still the most devastating war ever fought on US soil…

Spain, Yugoslavia, Lebanon.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#263

Post by Clubber »

nradov wrote: post #208
int_19h wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a non-American who lives in US these days, I can assure you that there's nothing unique about the Americans' ability to hate each other. In terms of literally killing people over that, you guys are definitely far behind.

More Americans should visit the Balkans and learn the regional history. It's a beautiful area, and gives some perspective on the universal human capacity for irrational hatred. What I've never understood is how people can get so outraged over even minor political differences. If someone agrees with you 80% then that's an ally, not an enemy.

Here's a list of characteristics of a cult. You'll probably recognize some of these in our modern (since about 1992) political discourse.

http://cultresearch.org/help/characteristics-associated-with...

- Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished.

- The group has a polarized, us-versus-them mentality, which may cause conflict with the wider society.

- The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify whatever means it deems necessary. This may result in members participating in behaviors or activities they would have considered reprehensible or unethical before joining the group.

- The leadership induces feelings of shame and/or guilt in order to influence and control members. Often this is done through peer pressure and subtle forms of persuasion.

- Subservience to the leader or group requires members to cut ties with family and friends, and radically alter the personal goals and activities they had before joining the group.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#264

Post by Clubber »

titzer wrote: post #259
School-Cotton wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your metric seems silly given that there are several groups of people actively trying to kill each other for religious, ideological, or ethnic reasons in various parts of the world. People in the US may well hate each other more than people in most peaceful developed countries, sure. But “this planet” is a big place.

I mean that Americans hate each other more than they hate anything else on this planet. Clearly there is plenty of other groups hating each other.

This is by design. The populace is easier to control that way. This has been going on here since Bacon's Rebellion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacon%27s_Rebellion

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#265

Post by supportlocal4h »

chrischen wrote: post #183
eunos wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Make 1 vaccine brand "endorsed by Republican" and other brand "endorsed by Democrat"

I think the vaccine endorsed by the right is called Ivermectin.

I consider myself to be on the right. We use Ivermectin. We have stocked it for years. It's a very handy de-wormer. It has served our livestock very well. If you have never used it, and have never treated animals for worms, maybe you should listen more and talk less. Most experienced people I know on the left are fine with Ivermectin.

Oh, you mean for Covid? We use BioNTech and Moderna for that.

Please stop confusing people on the right with vulnerable uneducated people in general. There are plenty of those on the left and right. Donald Trump does not represent the right. He represents Trumpers. Unfortunately many of those who shape the Republican party are Trumpers. But there are obviously perfectly reasonable people on the right who are not Trumpers.

The ignorant are exploited by both sides. Please be careful to distinguish between the exploiters and the exploited.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#266

Post by chitowneats »

void_mint wrote: post #258
chitowneats wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's so strange the way that American liberals hand-wave low vax rates in minority communities. Vague references to the "Tuskegee Experiments", a real event that of course has had some effect on the way some minorities view Western medicine and vaccines. Or notions of "access", despite the vaccines being completely free and widely available for many months. Tuskegee was many decades ago. There are much more recent ex…

> It's so strange the way that American liberals hand-wave low vax rates in minority communities. As you've commented (but then hand waved), the motive behind the distrust. "An orange man told me" vs. "The US government has spent hundreds of years oppressing our people, and the US medical system fails minorities consistently time and time again".

If you ignore my entire point about how the white working class has also been failed by the U.S. medical system in the opioid crisis, sure.

Trump has been vaccinated and recommends vaccination. Trump's administration instituted Operation Warp Speed, which supported and expedited vaccines the entire world has benefited from.

At the time, Democrats were busy sewing distrust about it.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#267

Post by void_mint »

chitowneats wrote: post #266
void_mint wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's so strange the way that American liberals hand-wave low vax rates in minority communities. As you've commented (but then hand waved), the motive behind the distrust. "An orange man told me" vs. "The US government has spent hundreds of years oppressing our people, and the US medical system fails minorities consistently time and time again".

If you ignore my entire point about how the white working class has also been failed by the U.S. medical system in the opioid crisis, sure. Trump has been vaccinated and recommends vaccination. Trump's administration instituted Operation Warp Speed, which supported and expedited vaccines the entire world has benefited from. At the time, Democrats were busy sewing distrust about it.

Do you see how the opioid crisis is relatively new, but pillaging minorities has been a thing in america for hundreds of years?

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#268

Post by chitowneats »

void_mint wrote: post #267
chitowneats wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you ignore my entire point about how the white working class has also been failed by the U.S. medical system in the opioid crisis, sure. Trump has been vaccinated and recommends vaccination. Trump's administration instituted Operation Warp Speed, which supported and expedited vaccines the entire world has benefited from. At the time, Democrats were busy sewing distrust about it.

Do you see how the opioid crisis is relatively new, but pillaging minorities has been a thing in america for hundreds of years?

Do you not see how the argument that vaccines are about "pillaging minorities" makes no sense? This is not about experiments that are being conducted on particular populations. This is about a mass vaccination campaign. One in which all Americans are being encouraged to get the jab.

It seems that you have trouble viewing things outside of this racial lens. My original comment was in hopes that you would start to consider this in a different light and understand why there perhaps might be race neutral reasons that people are hesitant. The opioid crisis is much closer to what people are afraid of. They're afraid that the vaccines are meant to help, but that they might hurt, at least if they're in a particular age group, or have a particular pre-existing condition, etc.

It's unfortunate that you're not willing to treat this issue and your political opponents with more empathy, but there's nothing I can do about that. At this point, you're pretty obviously downvote baiting me with outrageous comments, waiting eagerly for me to respond, so this is the last I'm going to engage with you.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#269

Post by void_mint »

chitowneats wrote: post #268
void_mint wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you see how the opioid crisis is relatively new, but pillaging minorities has been a thing in america for hundreds of years?

Do you not see how the argument that vaccines are about "pillaging minorities" makes no sense? This is not about experiments that are being conducted on particular populations. This is about a mass vaccination campaign. One in which all Americans are being encouraged to get the jab. It seems that you have trouble viewing things outside of this racial lens. My original comment was in hopes that you would start to cons…

> Do you not see how the argument that vaccines are about "pillaging minorities" makes no sense?

The argument is about government distrust. I'll skip the rest of your post.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#270

Post by tasogare »

int_19h wrote: post #223
tasogare wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but also predict the entire chain of events that has occurred as a consequence I wouldn't have agreed with you a year ago, but having seen it for myself, it's scary how true it is. All the wild "conspiracy theories" about the vaccine passport notably came to reality 6-8 months or so after being voiced.

What's the conspiracy aspect of that? It was widely understood early on that if anything would be a long-term solution, it's vaccines. And vaccine mandates have been around for many decades, so why was it surprising that they also showed up?

First it was a time were no vaccine was remotely on the radar so media weren't promoting a non-existing solution. It's only months laters that some get approved for experimentation on humans.

Secondly linking participation to social life and freedoms such as moving inside the country (or heck even buying food!) to the vaccination status of an individual is totally unheard of. The last time remotely similar measures were implemented was during WWII were passes where need to go from occupied zone to zone libre. This whole thing is astonishingly shocking and it's scary how many zealots will defend it. Especially now that data shown the virus is only dangerous for a very small segment of the population (obviously increased in countries were large segment of the population is obese).

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